Do fish feel pain?

[Luiz Rocha]

fish have nerves and brains that sense pain, just as all animals do. Dr. Donald Broom, a scientific advisor to the British government, explains, "The scientific literature is quite clear. Anatomically, physiologically and biologically, the pain system in fish is virtually the same as in birds and mammals." Neurobiologists have long recognized that fish have nervous systems that comprehend and respond to pain. Scientists tell us that fish brains and nervous systems closely resemble our own.

Did you read the first post in this thread? The post has a link to an article that is part of the scientific literature and says quite the opposite of what you are saying. You should take a look.

EDIT: Actually, I just realized I didn't put a link to the article in the first post, so here is a link.

 

[billsreef]

That scientific paper that Luiz provided the link for is well worth the read. Does a good job explaining the neurological differences between fish and mammals (and there are few significant differences). It's also quite recent.

Luiz, thanks again for that paper. It has indeed proved quite useful for those protocols I was working on. I'm expecting a quite interesting discussion on that paper with our director of lab animal research (he's actually a good guy, so it should be truly an interesting discussion).

 

[mperales]

Here is a link to an article in Analgesia, An Issue of Veterinary Clinics: Exotic Animal Practice, Veterinary Clinics of North America. Vol 14, No.1, Jan 2011.
Veterinary Clinics of North America are single subject books (surgery, oncology etc.) widely used by Veterinarians. They usually have a variety of topics on one subject.
After reading this article about analgesia I'm convincing my self, from a medical standpoint, that there is more to fish and pain than the article cited by OP will lead us to believe.
It also states an opposite view on the effects of surgery on fish appetite. They state that post-surgically, in a control group of fish (no intra-operative pain medicine or analgesics), these fish experienced decrease appetite and decreased activity vs. a butorphanol treated group

Link:
http://books.google.com/books?id=W8Gbh1VeCUYC&pg=PT46&lpg=PT46&dq=do+fish+have+A-delta+nerve+fibers&source=bl&ots=YaE-zVCpYT&sig=Yc1etckPOqzENsBm563bE4MxqKk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GDglUfPLOsau2gXFvYDABQ&ved=0CFEQ6AEwAzgK

I apologize in that the link does not seem to start at the top of the article, so scroll up.

Another thing that bothers me is when that authors make the statement:

Even if fishes were conscious, it is unwarranted to assume that they possess a human-like capacity for pain

and

evidence reviewed shows fish responses to nociceptive stimuli are limited and fishes are unlikely to experience pain.

This leads me to believe that, per the author's statement, they believe that unless a something has human-like capacity for pain it must not feel pain. This is a subjective and dangerous opinion to take.

 

[sail33]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphism

just saying....

Most of what is stated above only offers evidence that fish are not people. It really does nothing to prove that fish do or do not feel pain.

I think that it's safe to assume that fish and all living things do feel pain. I humbly suggest that assuming that as fact does no harm to us and might even help us to be more aware of the world at large.

 

[kevantheman35]

Whether they do or do not feel pain we will never know for sure. However, they do have a nervous system, though not as advanced as ours. I believe you should just assume all living organisms, especially vertebrates feel pain. Besides I would never intentionally hurt any type of animal.

 

[mperales]

I think we all agree that animals are not humans. No one here, on either side of the argument, has taken that position. At no point in time will I ever consider an animal socially or economically equal to a human.

Here is my rambling thought process, though it may be erroneous:
C fiber nociceptors - responsible for "long lasting" pain... and present (rarely) in some fish.

A-delta nociceptors - responsible for short, sharp pain... and present in fish.

Spinothalamic pathway - the major pathway for transmission of signals to trigger pain in mammals, including humans... also present in fish but not to the degree of development as in mammals. The thalamus is what processes the noxious stimuli, sends the information to the cortex/neocortex and triggers the physical/emotional response respectively. The thalamus is not as developed in fish as it is in humans, hence the lower level of response in fish. Yet, there is neuronal activity at this level when a "noxious stimuli" is applied.

So, I think that fish sense pain, but because of an under-developed thalamus the response that follows (physical/emotional) is not to the degree of "human-like pain".

Bill & Luiz - you are not going to hurt my feelings if you respond to my ramblings and think that I'm way off base. I'm very open minded, not an animal rights activist and like to learn about things. :thumbsup:

 

[billsreef]

Miguel,

I think it makes for an interesting conversation

Another part of the equation I find interesting is the opioid receptors in fish, and their high level endogenous opioid production. So I think natural pain blocking ability also plays a role.

BTW I recently came accross an interesting article on pharmacokinetics of morphine in winter flounder and trout that you and Luiz might find interesting.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1532045606000780

 

[nanomania]

i dont care what people think about animals..... its just that people who dont love them and like torturing them are not worth called humans.....

 

[T Diddy]

do fish feel pain?

do fish feel pain?

yes

 

[mperales]

yes

... concise answer

 

[Cuddlefish69]

It does not take a genious to realize that fish feel pain. Catch a fish in the gut while fishing and watch the reaction...

 

[Chrissypoo]

Yes.

 

[Thales]

i dont care what people think about animals..... its just that people who dont love them and like torturing them are not worth called humans.....

What about food fish or recreational fishing or substance fishing or sport fishing?

 

[Reeferz412]

I believe they do. When they have a chunk of their body ripped off they are in fight or flight mode, but once the dust settles they breathe fast and realize they have been inflicted with a fatal wound and die. I just think of the lobster that goes in the pot.

 

[nanomania]

What about food fish or recreational fishing or substance fishing or sport fishing?

I never watch it nor take part in all this torturing animals for fun/sports.....

i dont understand that whats wrong with humans...

 

[alexander_ktn]

I'm also someome who'd probably be a vegetarian if each of us would have to hunt/catch/kill the animals we get the meat from...

As for the question if fish feel pain or not: I think that no matter which way the studies point, they all agree that fish notice when they are damaged. So while it is a very interesting subject and one that should of course be studied, If we call it pain or noceptive reaction or whatever shouldn't be relevant for how we treat our pets.

 

[nanomania]

I'm also someome who'd probably be a vegetarian if each of us would have to hunt/catch/kill the animals we get the meat from...

As for the question if fish feel pain or not: I think that no matter which way the studies point, they all agree that fish notice when they are damaged. So while it is a very interesting subject and one that should of course be studied, If we call it pain or noceptive reaction or whatever shouldn't be relevant for how we treat our pets.

well said....+1

 

[KafudaFish]

I never watch it nor take part in all this torturing animals for fun/sports.....

i dont understand that whats wrong with humans...

According to your logic if I take my children fishing and we eat what we catch then there is something wrong with me because I have allowed my children to torture animals. Now I feel really bad that my children enjoyed that time with me. What about catch and release efforts? If my children catch a fish but release it, are they still torturing the fish?

I think that this entire scientific debate has made a left turn a few posts back and the focus has changed to opinion and emotional attachment.

If you feel so strongly about this subject, perhaps you should look at yourself and get rid of all your animals and set them free. Using your argument it seems that by keeping captive breed animals it is ok because it is humane yet if one went out and collected or fished then that has a different meaning altogether.

No?

 

[alexander_ktn]

According to your logic if I take my children fishing and we eat what we catch then there is something wrong with me because I have allowed my children to torture animals. Now I feel really bad that my children enjoyed that time with me. What about catch and release efforts? If my children catch a fish but release it, are they still torturing the fish?

I think there is a difference in e.g. fox hunting for fun and hunting deer to eat/use it. I think that's what nanomania meant.

It is of course a difficult subject and what is okay for one might not be okay for someone else. I was at a trout pond when I was a child and I couldn't even watch the fishies getting whacked... So for me there would probably be no fun in fishing, I never tried it tbh...

I think that this entire scientific debate has made a left turn a few posts back and the focus has changed to opinion and emotional attachment.

I think it's a scientific debate that some people might see as a justification for not caring about cruelty to animals in the broadest sense. "Fish don't feel pain" might be misunderstood by people. Even before the discussion "took a left turn" the issue of sedating/anesthetizing fish came up. I have Noga's book on fish diseases here and he has a section on how to treat fish humanely:

"1. Freedom from hunger and thirst"”For fish, this means providing a nutritious and palatable feed that main- tains full health and vigor.
2. Freedom from environmental challenge"”For fish, this would include appropriate water flow, nontrau- matic substrate, proper lighting, and lack of distur- bances (sounds, vibrations, etc.). It would also involve provision of a water supply with fully supportive con- stituents (oxygen, temperature, pH, etc.) and non- stressful levels of toxins (ammonia, nitrite, etc.).
3. Freedom from injury and disease"”For fish, this includes treating disease promptly and appropriately, performing procedures (handling, medical therapies) in a nonstressful manner, and, when needed, properly using sedatives and anesthetics for mitigating stress and alleviating pain.
4. Freedom to express normal behavior"”For fish, this would include proper population density and holding units with an appropriate size, shape, and substrate.
5. Freedom from fear and distress"”For fish, this means avoiding all conditions that cause mental or physical suffering, including aggression, cannibalism, trauma, and inappropriate handling or display."

If you feel so strongly about this subject, perhaps you should look at yourself and get rid of all your animals and set them free. Using your argument it seems that by keeping captive breed animals it is ok because it is humane yet if one went out and collected or fished then that has a different meaning altogether.

No?

I think one has to differentiate here - treating individual fish humanely has little to do with preserving them in the wild. Certain fish species we keep are very abundant and nothing (except maybe the energy used for the transport) speaks against collecting those if it is done carefully and with proper techniques. Other species are rare in the wild or live in very sensitive systems - here every effort should be made to get a sustainable solution - be it raising them in tanks, farming them or even refraining from keeping them at all.

 

[nanomania]

I think there is a difference in e.g. fox hunting for fun and hunting deer to eat/use it. I think that's what nanomania meant.

It is of course a difficult subject and what is okay for one might not be okay for someone else. I was at a trout pond when I was a child and I couldn't even watch the fishies getting whacked... So for me there would probably be no fun in fishing, I never tried it tbh...


I think it's a scientific debate that some people might see as a justification for not caring about cruelty to animals in the broadest sense. "Fish don't feel pain" might be misunderstood by people. Even before the discussion "took a left turn" the issue of sedating/anesthetizing fish came up. I have Noga's book on fish diseases here and he has a section on how to treat fish humanely:

"1. Freedom from hunger and thirst"”For fish, this means providing a nutritious and palatable feed that main- tains full health and vigor.
2. Freedom from environmental challenge"”For fish, this would include appropriate water flow, nontrau- matic substrate, proper lighting, and lack of distur- bances (sounds, vibrations, etc.). It would also involve provision of a water supply with fully supportive con- stituents (oxygen, temperature, pH, etc.) and non- stressful levels of toxins (ammonia, nitrite, etc.).
3. Freedom from injury and disease"”For fish, this includes treating disease promptly and appropriately, performing procedures (handling, medical therapies) in a nonstressful manner, and, when needed, properly using sedatives and anesthetics for mitigating stress and alleviating pain.
4. Freedom to express normal behavior"”For fish, this would include proper population density and holding units with an appropriate size, shape, and substrate.
5. Freedom from fear and distress"”For fish, this means avoiding all conditions that cause mental or physical suffering, including aggression, cannibalism, trauma, and inappropriate handling or display."



I think one has to differentiate here - treating individual fish humanely has little to do with preserving them in the wild. Certain fish species we keep are very abundant and nothing (except maybe the energy used for the transport) speaks against collecting those if it is done carefully and with proper techniques. Other species are rare in the wild or live in very sensitive systems - here every effort should be made to get a sustainable solution - be it raising them in tanks, farming them or even refraining from keeping them at all.

+1... this is what i ment....