Do fish feel pain?

[nanomania]

i see parents teaching thier kids how to kill animals and then click pics posing with that animal and a smile on their faces..... well thats wrong..... anything thats killed for money or fun is really not human... people have started fishing in such a way that many animals have gone extinct.... all im trying to say is save nature and teach your kinds how beautiful the wild is and how ugly it is to kill these beauties jus for fun and money... im not against nonvegeterians, im against the way people have started wiping out an entire species of animals from the face of earth... i pet animals for educating people around me and for my passion for all the creatures on earth.. i also take part in online conservation programmes and giving ideas....

 

[power boat jim]

In answering this question you have to ask yourself, What evolutionary reason would there be for a fish to feel pain? The answers in my OPINION would be few if any. They are equipped with a lat line sysyem that feels changes in pressure. This is all they really need to have a sense of danger. When pressure is felt their response is to leave quickly. They also generally have good vision and smell. These two senses also can alert them to danger, which generally triggers a flight response.

Fish dont have the innate curiosity (or stupidity?) of a human and try to put their fins over a fire or grab a sharp object or any of the thousands of other silly things we do that could get us hurt.The ability to feel pain as a human is a reminder to not do something cause it might damage you. Fish dont really need it for this purpose. We also feel pain to let us know something is wrong with us so maybe we can modify our routine to stop the pain. We now have an entire field dedicated to this. It would be the medical field. Fish dont need to feel pain for this reason either. If something goes internally wrong with a fish, why waste energy and neural complexity when there isnt anything that can be done about it.

If fish felt alot of pain how is it they can live in freezing water? Try jumping into a pool of nearly freezing water and tell me what you feel. As stated before in this thread it would be cruel to wire a link in the food chain to feel high levels of pain when they can easily be bitten in half and left for dead at any time.

I dont doubt fish feel something when they are speared or caught on a hook. I dont believe its what a human or even a mammal would feel though. These are my thoughts on the subject using only what seems logical to me.

 

[Paul B]

I agree and as I said, a fish is an animal that never does of old age, they are always eaten by something else, many times, by me.

 

[power boat jim]

I agree and as I said, a fish is an animal that never does of old age, they are always eaten by something else, many times, by me.

Thanks Paul, Im glad (or afraid) at least one person sees logic the way I do.

 

[alexander_ktn]

What evolutionary reason would there be for a fish to feel pain?

I don't know if I'm completely off here, but pain is a great evolutionary advantage. Getting stung by an anemone and remembering the pain will teach you to avoid them. Being bitten by an Aspidontus? - Ah, next time look closer...

I agree, the "one bite and you're gone" scenarios are not the ones pain helps with - but pain also doesn't help a human that gets squished by a truck.

But the tons of smaller incidents clearly favor the fish that remembers a situation in which it has been damaged. Just look at fish that were bitten by the false cleaner fish - they remember and there are studies on the subject.

 

[nanomania]

drown yourself and remove a fish out of water..... let me know whats the difference....

 

[mperales]

a fish is an animal that never does of old age.

Estimated lifespan of whale shark is over 100 yrs, groupers 30-50 yrs. :beer:

What evolutionary reason would there be for a fish to feel pain?

The most obvious answer would be survival. The avoidance of anemones and false cleaner fish that alexander_ktn gave are great examples of a negative reinforcement (pain) learned avoidance behavior.

 

[Wolverine]

In answering this question you have to ask yourself, What evolutionary reason would there be for a fish to feel pain? The answers in my OPINION would be few if any.

As noted by a few people, sensation of pain confers a great advantage, since it teaches avoidance of dangerous things. Fish can come into contact with things that can do damage without necessarily killing immediately.

As stated before in this thread it would be cruel to wire a link in the food chain to feel high levels of pain when they can easily be bitten in half and left for dead at any time.

Natural selection doesn't care. Nature red in tooth and claw, and all that. Cruelty has nothing to do with it.

 

[power boat jim]

drown yourself and remove a fish out of water..... let me know whats the difference....

Makes absolutly no sense whatsoever. Please explain what this means.

 

[Paul B]

Estimated lifespan of whale shark is over 100 yrs, groupers 30-50 yrs.

It is eatimated because no one knows but when that whale shark and groupers get old and slow down, something will eat them alive, pain or no pain. I have a clownfish 19 years old and when he slows down, I may eat him, but not live. :wavehand:

Makes absolutly no sense whatsoever. Please explain what this means.

Me either but it is what it is :fun5:

We all agree that fish feel something. If it's pain or not, I hope not because of what I said, almost all of them get eaten alive whether we take them for our tank or leave them in the sea, they don't usually die a peaceful, old age death.
I know Jesus ate fish and he didn't give them novicane first. At least I don't think so.

 

[mperales]

Makes absolutly no sense whatsoever. Please explain what this means.

Didn't get that statement either but I think he means a fish out of water would go through the same stress that we would go through if we were to drown?

 

[Paul B]

I think that is also what he meant. I just ate some sushi tuna for lunch and I will have some clams and probably cod for dinner. I hope they didn't feel any pain.
But I almost never eat red meat so I guess I save there.

 

[mperales]

But I almost never eat red meat so I guess I save there.

Well, I make up for what you save. Ribeyes....mmmmmm

 

[power boat jim]

I think that is also what he meant. I just ate some sushi tuna for lunch and I will have some clams and probably cod for dinner. I hope they didn't feel any pain.
But I almost never eat red meat so I guess I save there.

I thought he/she wanted me to drown myself so I could tell them what it felt like to be a fish out of water. See, I was confused because if I drown myself it would be hard to tell them what it felt like. Guess I took it as it was written.

Also it seems some keep wanting to personify fish. We dont share many similarities with them so it makes the comparison nearly impossible. The question was do fish feel pain. The short answer is probably yes they do, but not to the point we do for the reasons or opinions I listed above.Others have their take on it.

Things appeared to me to be taking a turn towards "do fish feel pain like a human and is it moral for us to go fishing since they do." It was an attempt on my part to get away from the moral judgment that is being passed and get back to thread thats not headed toward that sort of argument.

I appreciate and understand everyone elses input. Now whats for dinner again Paul?

 

[mperales]

I agree that sometimes this thread tries to turn into an "ethical" discussion (a no win discussion) I'm trying to keep it on a more scientific level
As I stated earlier in this thread:

So, I think that fish sense pain, but because of an under-developed thalamus the response that follows (physical/emotional) is not to the degree of "human-like pain"

Now whats for dinner again Paul?

How about a nice surf and turf.

 

[Paul B]

I thought he/she wanted me to drown myself so I could tell them what it felt like to be a fish out of water. See, I was confused because if I drown myself it would be hard to tell them what it felt like. Guess I took it as it was written.

I think drowning would be annoying and uncomfortable but I am not sure about pain.
I feed my fish clams and mysis, do the mysis have the same rights as the fish? How about the clam, he may have felt pain when I froze him. I also hatch brine shrimp and feed them to my mandarins every day. Do they feel pain? And my mandarins spawn every couple of months, and I let the other fish eat the fry, did they feel pain?
I don't remember how I cycled my tank 40 years ago but if I used a dead shrimp, did that shrimp have the same rights as the damsel I could have cycled the tank with? Any why not?
I also feed live blackworms, do they go by the same constitution that we do?
Today I watched my mandarin eat about a thousand pods, where do they come in to this? They are living beings. Do they have rights?
Yesterday I cleaned my workshop and I vacuumed up a bunch of spiders. Should I have just asked them to leave and should I be feeding my fish lettuce and tomato sandwiches?
Where do we draw the line? Do paracites and bacteria feel pain? And if so, should we let them live?

Is it the size of the animal that gives it rights or it's intelligence? If it is the intelligence, should we test them. The only reason pods don't do well on tests is that they don't have thumbs to hold the pencil. :uhoh3:

So, if we are against inflicting pain on any living thing, exactly where do we draw the line because my feet are probably killing some dust mites even as we speak. :facepalm:

 

[disc1]

The only reason pods don't do well on tests is that they don't have thumbs to hold the pencil. :uhoh3:

:lol2:

 

[mperales]

The only reason pods don't do well on tests is that they don't have thumbs to hold the pencil. :uhoh3:

I can tell you are an old timer... we all know now a days they take their tests on iPods

 

[vitz]

given that a feather's touch can make people jerk an arm away just as quickly as a pinprick, how can any of you know for certain that when an animal reacts suddenly to any stimuli it must be because it's 'feeling' 'x' or 'y' ?

 

[nanomania]

Makes absolutly no sense whatsoever. Please explain what this means.

Simple! Both will die the same way.. "SUFFOCATING"