Do fish feel pain?

[syrinx]

do you have any objective evidence or links to back up that assertion?

do ants feel pain? how do you know?

First off- you are worried about definition of terms than furthering the scope of your beliefs. We all know that fish sense when they are being stung, bitten etc. Whether this is pressure, or a sensation of damage or pain- is merely vocab and definition- which obviously we cannot know. My point is simply that there is not the same emotional component of pain that warm blooded animals possess in varying degrees. If to you pain must include this component to be defined as pain- then no, fish do not feel pain.

Do ants feel pain? I think pain does have to do with the brain,nerves, and endocrine system-the latter being the most important-especially in concious animals. As I recall, ants possess a superesophigial ganglia and subesophigial ganglia, and then a series of smaller ones, not a brain proper. And then there is the whole exoskel thing. I would have to say -no they do not feel pain- but certainly can sense damage or pressure.

Again if one must be able to associate pain with an emotion like suffering, or agony- then I can understand feeling that fish do not feel pain. I just believe pain is a certain kind of nerve stimulation,the sensation of which causes self preservation.

By the way I have been in the animal industry for 25 years or more as a profession-so I understand and respect your experiences. And have enjoyed your posts on both of these threads.

 

[vitz]

First off- you are worried about definition of terms than furthering the scope of your beliefs. We all know that fish sense when they are being stung, bitten etc. Whether this is pressure, or a sensation of damage or pain- is merely vocab and definition- which obviously we cannot know. My point is simply that there is not the same emotional component of pain that warm blooded animals possess in varying degrees. If to you pain must include this component to be defined as pain- then no, fish do not feel pain.

Do ants feel pain? I think pain does have to do with the brain,nerves, and endocrine system-the latter being the most important-especially in concious animals. As I recall, ants possess a superesophigial ganglia and subesophigial ganglia, and then a series of smaller ones, not a brain proper. And then there is the whole exoskel thing. I would have to say -no they do not feel pain- but certainly can sense damage or pressure.

Again if one must be able to associate pain with an emotion like suffering, or agony- then I can understand feeling that fish do not feel pain. I just believe pain is a certain kind of nerve stimulation,the sensation of which causes self preservation.

By the way I have been in the animal industry for 25 years or more as a profession-so I understand and respect your experiences. And have enjoyed your posts on both of these threads.

where on earth do you get that from?

if a discussion is using certain terms, it's paramount that the term definitions are known/agreed upon by the participants, or the discussion is useless, if different people mean different things for those same terms

'the devil is in the details'

you're making very large assumptive leaps as to my reasoning/motives, and they are completely incorrect.

furthering the scope of one's beliefs isn't the issue here, imo. furthering the scope of one's knowledge is, if my beliefs than change or 'expand' as a result, than fine-but the knowledge data needs to be there-else how can i reasonably defend those beliefs in a discussion?

a belief is really a type of conclusion based on all types of inputs/observations/environment etc., and comes about from the initial 'knowledge base' we have. if not, then it's just 'dogma', afaic .i question(ed) all of my beliefs and do so on an ongoing basis.

i'm genuinely curious about all of this, and how others think about this stuff, and how it touches on the subject matter at hand-not trying to troll or annoy, but certain 'ground rules' or conventions are always necessary to have a truly meaningful discourse on these types of issues/subjects, imo

 

[vitz]

Perhaps the real question for research should be why would other animals "feel" or "perceive" pain any differently than the human animal? If some "superior" alien species came along and asked themselves if Humans could feel pain, would they think any differently about the question than we do of other animals?

There are times I can't help but wonder if fish I've tagged (some had acoustical transponders surgically implanted) have gone back to their schools telling alien abduction stories about being caught, brought up to the alien craft and having painful surgical procedures done to them before being released :eek1:

excellent question!

'ant, boot' hehe :razz:

 

[syrinx]

What is your definition of pain then?

 

[vitz]

What is your definition of pain then?


good question, and after 50 yrs i'm not sure i can answer that to anyone else's satisfaction, heh....

i know what *i* feel when i incur various level injuries, or am sick w/flu, etc. but i have absolutely no idea if anyone else really feels the same things in the same way or at the same levels as i.

much in the same way i have no idea if i see 'blue' the way you do, especially since i'm mildly color blind for shades of blue/green

nor can i exactly quantify the differences in the various levels or type on any kind of truly objective scale-it's all entirely subjective, for everyone, imo

i've always had a very high pain tolerance (not just my subjective opinion, also that of various docs i've seen)-and also have what is known as 'general sensory neuropathy', so it's likely that i feel less pain for a particular injury than someone else might

i do think, however, that the level of sophistication of a neural network has direct bearing on the level of sophistication of any creature's pain perception/processing mechanisms-seems intuitively obvious to me, kind of like the idea proposed by heinlein in 'the moon is a harsh mistress', re: the computer mycroft ('mike') that became self aware once it attained a certain level of 'connection complexity' by having more and more computers/connections' added to 'his' 'neural net' (amazing book btw, and a 'cult classic' by one of the scifi masters of modern yore )

i just don't see certain classes of animals having the same pain perception abilities due to the size of their brains/neurological sophistication

i could certainly be wrong, heh

having said all that, and not being sure it fully explains what i'm trying to convey, i'd say that pain is a 'feeling' (which i'm NOT gong to attempt to define yet, at least not in this post), and a mental state that results when certain cells who's purpose is to send messages to the brain when they're damaged (pain receptors). i fully believe that this mechanism requires a certain minimal level of brain/neural development/sophistication. and everything i've seen personally re: various animal's behaviors indicate that fish do not share that level of development/sophistication.

alot of my opinion in both of the related threads is from my own anecdotal observations day in day out of thousands upon thousands of fish, not limited to aquaria environments.

(as a commercial fisherman, i worked alot w/silver carp, and mullet, among others.when closing a net for a 5-10 ton shipment in a holding pond, you get to a point where the carp or mullet panic, and begin to fly through the air like missiles-they can break your skull/neck/cojones if they hit ya properly- i've seen these fish slam into a hard surface at over 20 mph and hit the water and continue on their merry way like nuttin ever happened-if they felt pain the way we do, they be doing loop deloops in agony, rather than just chuggin along, heh-and these fish have bigger brains than a goldfish, or blenny-i know because i had to dissect thousands of carp to remove the pituitary to prepare hormone injections for artificial spawing in the farm's hatchery lab that i co-managed for a yr)

i'm not even sure that all pain is of value as a survival mechanism. feeling pain from a flame is, but why should a toothache hurt so much when there was nothing our early ancestors could do about it except go nuts, or try to smash one's face w/a rock? heh

i also think a parrot 'feels' pain on a different level than a finch, or ostrich, having worked w/all of them long term. based on reactions to falls, wing injuries, bad/improper handling, etc

hope i've at least partially been able to convey an idea of what i actually think on the subject, heh


it's a *really* complex issue, and one i think the best neuro scientists and philosophers still struggle with today, as far as concrete qualifyers/quantifiers go

 

[mperales]

Vitz wrote:

if a discussion is using certain terms, it's paramount that the term definitions are known/agreed upon by the participants, or the discussion is useless

Though we are slightly on different ends of the pain discussion, I would have to completely agree with you on this. We have to have a basic, common understanding of terminology or the argument is moot.
That being said, there is a somewhat parallel discussion going on the euthanasia thread so I may have to repeat myself. As I stated there, I don't know the educational or scientific background of all of you. In my field of work I have to talk to clients every day about difficult medical, laboratory and yes emotional decisions that they have to make about their pets. If I come across as condescending, it is not my intention.
Here are two of the terms that I would be using and how I would like for them to be understood.
Subjective- Based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions
Objective- Not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts
So if I say " I think I have a fever because I feel warm", that is a subjective statement. But if I say " The thermometer says I have 104 F, I have a fever" that is an objective statement. You can't really argue against the fact that I have 104 F.

According to The International Association for the Study of Pain (IASP), pain is defined as:
"An unpleasant sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage, or described in terms of such damage."
It also adds that: "The inability to communicate verbally does not negate the possibility that an individual is experiencing pain and is in need of appropriate pain-relieving treatment. Pain is always subjective."
When dealing with animals, the AVMA (American Veterinary Medical Association) uses the same terminology. Where it brings a slight discord is when it uses " emotional experience", because that opens a big can of worms that I'm not willing to open: do all animals have emotions?
The big point that I'm trying to make is that we have to be careful not to contaminate the definition of pain in animals by using human emotions. That introduces subjectivity.
The human medical field has a slight advantage because they are only dealing with one species and it can communicate, but we do have the advantage that animals don't add subjectivity to the pain response.. In animals we are dealing with a myriad of different species that have different developmental stages of a neurological system and sometimes there is no obvious visual communication. Because of that lack of communication we have to use other data such as heart rate, respiration rate, increase in blood pressure, cortisol levels, endorphin release, things that in some species is not possible to do.

vitz, you mentioned " fish slam into a hard surface at over 20 mph and hit the water and continue on their merry way like nuttin ever happened" This could easily be explained by the fight or flight response where endorphins are released and these are great pain controllers. So, in my own words , the fish is going " I gotta get the hell outta here, who cares if my head hurts"
Since pain can trigger the fight/flight mechanism I do think pain is important in survival because it might make you run a little faster that the stranger next to you when that bear is chasing you.
So, there is plenty of research to indicate that fish do have pain receptors such as the opiod receptors. I'll copy and paste from the euthanasia thread:
"We know that there has to be pain receptors for a being to perceive (leaving out the anthropomorphistic word "feel") pain. One type of pain receptor is called opioid receptor (which there are four types). One of the many functions of this receptors is to perceive pain. Sussane Dreborg, et al, discusses the evolution of vertebrate opiod receptors including bony fishes.
Abstract:
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/40/15487.short

and Xia Li, et al, describe how opiod receptors are found in vertebrates (including rudimentally in fish) but not in invertebrates (your ant question )
Abstract:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...1457939601126X

Substance P is a neurotransmitter that has been associatied with inflammatory processes and pain. Von Euler and Ostlund found levels of substance P in cod and dogfish
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...509612/?page=1

So does that mean that fish sense pain? I honestly can tell you that I don't know; however, the wiring is there for them to do so. Maybe more like a simple circuit than a complex computer but it is still there.
That is why I err on the side of caution."

P.S: Is it hypocritical of me that I'm eating sushi for lunch as I type this? :eek2:

 

[vitz]

miguel

i haven't interpreted or been able to read into anything remotely approaching condescension in any of your posts

i fully understand your p.o.v. and agree w/ your approach wholeheartedly.

i think the reaction of my 'whack in the net' suggestion/recommendation folks have is more a visceral one towards the act itself-the fact is that a proper whack, is instantaneous in the desired effect

it takes about 1/10 of a sec to kill a fish that way, and i cannot see that it could be any less humane than than the soda, freezer, or tranq recommendations

if a 10 ton safe fell on me from out of the sky i wouldn't feel any pain or be aware of my impending doom, either, hehe one second i'd be alive, then instantly dead-nothing cruel/inhumane about that

 

[billsreef]

Because of that lack of communication we have to use other data such as heart rate, respiration rate, increase in blood pressure, cortisol levels, endorphin release, things that in some species is not possible to do.

I know there has been measurable responses of increased respiration (I'd assume heart rate would also raise with this) and cortisol levels in fish in response to obvious stress and things that you would expect to cause pain (if it was happening to us). Also of interest, there is a marked increase in respiration and cortisol levels in fish when first exposed to MS-222 before the sedative effect takes place.

vitz, you mentioned " fish slam into a hard surface at over 20 mph and hit the water and continue on their merry way like nuttin ever happened" This could easily be explained by the fight or flight response where endorphins are released and these are great pain controllers. So, in my own words , the fish is going " I gotta get the hell outta here, who cares if my head hurts"

This makes a lot of sense as well. Especially in light of the opiod receptors. After all, which fish gets picked off first? The obviously struggling one. So it pays to tolerate and not react to pain, even if experiencing that pain. I know when implanted tags, fish certainly try and squirm around like it's a painful experience (more so than just struggling that occurs from just being on a boat instead of in the water), yet they recover pretty darn quickly and swim off normally...in most cases. Occasionally we have had fish take quite awhile to recover, and some rare ones end up with the sea gulls after them due to struggling on the surface instead of swimming off.

 

[mperales]

Also of interest, there is a marked increase in respiration and cortisol levels in fish when first exposed to MS-222 before the sedative effect takes place.

This is very typical of a lot of anesthetics. As the anesthetics begin to take effect (low levels in body) there is an excitatory phase (increased respiration, heart rate, fight/flight response) followed by suppression of the same systems as the anesthetics levels increase in the body. If deep enough, it can cause cardiovascular collapse, apnea (no breathing) and death.

 

[billsreef]

This is very typical of a lot of anesthetics. As the anesthetics begin to take effect (low levels in body) there is an excitatory phase (increased respiration, heart rate, fight/flight response) followed by suppression of the same systems as the anesthetics levels increase in the body. If deep enough, it can cause cardiovascular collapse, apnea (no breathing) and death.

Hence the use of an overdose of MS-222 as method of euthanasia. It's also the sort of response that has always left me wondering if it's really the best way...though it is efficient when euthanizing hundreds or thousands of fish at the end of an experiment for that final weighing, measuring and dissecting.

 

[Megatrev62]

I can relate this as to if I think fish feel pain. Many years ago I had to "put down" about 8-10 comets. They were removed from tank and put in 5 gallon bucket. They were 3-4 inches in length. Was told that once boiling water hits the gills of fish they die instantly. There was just enough water to cover the fish.

I boiled the kettle and was above the bucket. When I poured the boiling water on the fish, they jumped out of their skins. It was brutal. I was sweating profusely and there was no turning back. There was no movement in about 20-30 seconds. Scales , eyes out of sockets and blood everywhere in that bucket.

I felt terrible about it, but that was what I was told to do. Those fish IMO definitely felt the boiling water hit their bodies, and what I would presume to be very very painful.

 

[nutfluff]

What's wrong with the good ol' garbage disposal. Instant.

 

[billsreef]

What's wrong with the good ol' garbage disposal. Instant.

Not so instant, depending on what part gets hit by those blades first.

 

[nutfluff]

Not so instant, depending on what part gets hit by those blades first.

Really????? Think you're just splitting milliseconds here...

 

[billsreef]

Finally got a chance to start reading this paper. Only about half way through. Great stuff IMO. The section on fish surgery and implanting tags especially, as it is quite pertinent to some protocols I'm working on. The vet heading up our dept. of lab animal research is rather bothered by the typical lack of anesthesia for such field surgery. This should help me with those discussions.

 

[KafudaFish]

Hey Bill I have an email of someone from USFWS who could help with the concerns regarding the field work if you are interested.

He might be a source for this issue.

 

[mperales]

Bill, if you don't mind me asking, what kind of research do you do?
(unless it's top secret, I can tell you but then I'll have to kill you stuff)

 

[billsreef]

Hey Bill I have an email of someone from USFWS who could help with the concerns regarding the field work if you are interested.

He might be a source for this issue.

I'll bet he's not hampered with AAALAC accreditation concerns and rat/mice/primate people trying to assert the same outlook on fish. Though, if he's got anything good on tonic immobility, that could be useful

Bill, if you don't mind me asking, what kind of research do you do?
(unless it's top secret, I can tell you but then I'll have to kill you stuff)

Marine Science I'm actually not directly involved in any specific research anymore, but in a support position for a university marine science program. Basically I'm the guy that keeps the facilities up and running. Anything from plumbing sea water systems, consulting for fish and invert culture, boat captain, webmaster, building manager, grill master (grad student BBQ's ), informal adviser to grad students, herder of wayward undergrads....

Kind of puts my hands on a lot of different research, even helping out the chemists, though my background is primarily the biology end of things. Makes for an interesting job, could be stuck in the office with bureaucracy one day, and running a boat for a class the next.

 

[Tbohinc]

I seen a speaker at MACNA in Pittsburge on the same topic BY Stan Dannemiller.

 

[ken55]

Thanks folks for the fascinating thread. If someone had asked me two weeks ago if fish feel pain I would have replied "That's a silly question, of course they do". Now, I'm not so sure, at least not the way that we feel pain. Makes me think of other mamals giving birth. They seem to be relatively unfazed by the process but it's excrutiating for humans.

I still think fish are bound to feel something but mayby it's something so totally different that we, as humans, can't really imagine what it's like.

Thanks again.