bleedingthought
New member
Make sure there is a way for the air to get in there. You could also always install a one way vent that send AC air into that room...
Dudester’s 450g corner in-wall and tank room – help with design
- Thread starter Dudester
- Start date
Dudester
Premium Member
Great points Marc. Cool, so I'm going with 2 vents with humidistat-controlled fans, no primary cold air supply, and no dehumidifyer. So it is written, so it will be done. Thanks, guys! And Thiago, the door to the tank room will not be sealed, so fresh air will be able to enter from below.
Thanks guys!
Thanks guys!
Awesome build Dudester! I just found your thread and you're making me jealous!! 
I second Melev's comments about flow. I can't stand the look of a bunch of Tunze's in the display. It really detracts from the beauty of the reef. I'm planning to have 2 external waveboxes flanking the overflow on one end of the tank similar to Jar*head's setup. The Tunze's will just be peeking through the holes. I will also have a couple of Vortechs at the other end of the tank. Lastly, I plan to add a Tunze hidden in a Tunze rock to create a little turbulence in the mid section of the tank. The goal is to create a lot of flow without a lot of mess. You may or may not choose to adopt some of these ideas, but that's my 2 cents. I prefer to stay away from closed loops just because of the tendency for bulkheads to leak. Even a nice Hayward bulkhead is at risk long term - FWIW, I'm leaning towards an AGE tank with PVC bottom as well and I'm still staying away from a closed loop. I believe an open aquascape is key to preventing detritus accumulation. With the Tunzes and Vortechs, the closed loop should not be necessary. Of course, your tank is quite a bit larger so it would require a few more pumps than I plan to run.
This may not apply to your new home, but anyway... As far as your ventilation, you should consider the source of the air entering the fish room. I understand that your fishroom will not be sealed (I presume you mean unsealed to the inside of the house). If you are running two fans, the air you're pulling out of the fishroom and therefore out of the house, needs to be replenished with make-up air from outside the house. Let's say you're pulling 100cfm per fan. That means you need to leak 200cfm back into the room. If you had an older style furnace, you can create a dangerous negative pressure situation that causes the air normally going up through the flue to come back down and pull carbon monoxide back into the house. If your house were older and not 100% sealed up like newer homes today, then you could potentially leak the make-up air into the house through the cracks, windows, etc (instead of coming back down the flue). However, if you're pulling a substantial amount of air out of the house, you may not be able to leak enough air back in. Since you're dealing with new construction and will likely have a newer 90%+ efficient furnace, power vented water heater or are electric, you shouldn't have this issue. Just make sure the HVAC guys are aware of the amount of air you plan to exhaust out of the house so that you have sufficient fresh air coming back in. This is also for other readers to consider who may not be dealing with new construction.
I second Melev's comments about flow. I can't stand the look of a bunch of Tunze's in the display. It really detracts from the beauty of the reef. I'm planning to have 2 external waveboxes flanking the overflow on one end of the tank similar to Jar*head's setup. The Tunze's will just be peeking through the holes. I will also have a couple of Vortechs at the other end of the tank. Lastly, I plan to add a Tunze hidden in a Tunze rock to create a little turbulence in the mid section of the tank. The goal is to create a lot of flow without a lot of mess. You may or may not choose to adopt some of these ideas, but that's my 2 cents. I prefer to stay away from closed loops just because of the tendency for bulkheads to leak. Even a nice Hayward bulkhead is at risk long term - FWIW, I'm leaning towards an AGE tank with PVC bottom as well and I'm still staying away from a closed loop. I believe an open aquascape is key to preventing detritus accumulation. With the Tunzes and Vortechs, the closed loop should not be necessary. Of course, your tank is quite a bit larger so it would require a few more pumps than I plan to run.This may not apply to your new home, but anyway... As far as your ventilation, you should consider the source of the air entering the fish room. I understand that your fishroom will not be sealed (I presume you mean unsealed to the inside of the house). If you are running two fans, the air you're pulling out of the fishroom and therefore out of the house, needs to be replenished with make-up air from outside the house. Let's say you're pulling 100cfm per fan. That means you need to leak 200cfm back into the room. If you had an older style furnace, you can create a dangerous negative pressure situation that causes the air normally going up through the flue to come back down and pull carbon monoxide back into the house. If your house were older and not 100% sealed up like newer homes today, then you could potentially leak the make-up air into the house through the cracks, windows, etc (instead of coming back down the flue). However, if you're pulling a substantial amount of air out of the house, you may not be able to leak enough air back in. Since you're dealing with new construction and will likely have a newer 90%+ efficient furnace, power vented water heater or are electric, you shouldn't have this issue. Just make sure the HVAC guys are aware of the amount of air you plan to exhaust out of the house so that you have sufficient fresh air coming back in. This is also for other readers to consider who may not be dealing with new construction.
Dudester
Premium Member
Thanks Oldtimer, always nice to see an engineer's perspective!
I agree with you and if at all possible, I will go with the external waveboxes flanking the overflow. This will require removal of one column, and I'm meeting with the builder later this week to check the feasability of this. Any powerheads in the tank will be (hopefully) well hidden by the aquascape, if not immediately, then eventually when the corals grow out. I'm not worried about being able to conceal them, but I will certainly try to keep them as inconspicuous as possible. I hear your concerns for the CL loud and clear, and I'm still reconsidering, but I just feel so darn confident in the PVC/sched80 bond that it's difficult for me to become worried.
Your interperetation of my use of the word "sealed" is accurate in that the door to the tank room will have space beneath for air to enter the room. Do you think this will be enough to replace the exhausted air? Also, as Marc suggested, I'll be able to open the access panels to the tank room along the front and side of the tank whenever necessary. This house will be extremely energy efficient. We are adding foam insulation, and it will have solar panels covering more than 1/2 of the roof. Since it is so energy efficient ('green,' if you will) we've been instructed to avoid opening windows and doors as much as possible, as the house will be built with adequate sources of fresh outside air. I can't give you any specs on the A/C and electric heater, but I'm sure they are new devices using modern technology. Your comments are appreciated and I will forward them to my superintendant for his review. Thanks so much! Do you have a build thread, I'd love to check it out.
I agree with you and if at all possible, I will go with the external waveboxes flanking the overflow. This will require removal of one column, and I'm meeting with the builder later this week to check the feasability of this. Any powerheads in the tank will be (hopefully) well hidden by the aquascape, if not immediately, then eventually when the corals grow out. I'm not worried about being able to conceal them, but I will certainly try to keep them as inconspicuous as possible. I hear your concerns for the CL loud and clear, and I'm still reconsidering, but I just feel so darn confident in the PVC/sched80 bond that it's difficult for me to become worried.
Your interperetation of my use of the word "sealed" is accurate in that the door to the tank room will have space beneath for air to enter the room. Do you think this will be enough to replace the exhausted air? Also, as Marc suggested, I'll be able to open the access panels to the tank room along the front and side of the tank whenever necessary. This house will be extremely energy efficient. We are adding foam insulation, and it will have solar panels covering more than 1/2 of the roof. Since it is so energy efficient ('green,' if you will) we've been instructed to avoid opening windows and doors as much as possible, as the house will be built with adequate sources of fresh outside air. I can't give you any specs on the A/C and electric heater, but I'm sure they are new devices using modern technology. Your comments are appreciated and I will forward them to my superintendant for his review. Thanks so much! Do you have a build thread, I'd love to check it out.
tbone28
Active member
Mike, I agree with Oldtimer about CL as a source for potential leaks. Despite having a PVC bottom and using Sch80 BH's, my thought is "why introduce a *possible* source of leaks?" when there are many options to introduce the necessary flow? As you know, I went AGE, too. The PVC bottom is still beneficial in case the rockwork falls over.
Not a problem. This hobby is all about sharing.
If you feel you must have the CL, then go for it. But, I would only do it with a PVC bottom and you should consider being able to contain any potential leaks in the future - 15 years is a long time. Personally, I just feel that it's one less thing to worry about later. Plus, OM 4-ways and sand don't mix and I want a thin layer of sand in my display.
No build thread yet. I've been documenting everything in order to create one when the time is right. I'm just finishing up the electrical at the moment - ran a new subpanel with (4) 20 amp GFCI breakers to feed the fish room. In the process of finishing the basement at the same time. Working on a 1937 home has it's challenges, so I'm a bit behind schedule, but feeling the pressure from my wife now that we have a little guy due in July.
I'll give you a sneak peek - Bubble King, Deltec, and Red Dragon are all involved in my build.
Looks like we have similar taste in equipment
I love the fact that you're home is following a green mindset. My wife and I are very environmentally concerned and energy efficiency is playing a key role in my decisions in equipment selection for the reef. I'd love to be able to take advantage of solar panels, but we are heavily shaded by mature trees. Solar technology is on the brink of having some major breakthroughs. I believe it will become standard in new home construction in the coming years.
I have a feeling that your HVAC will be fine. The superintendent should be able to consider any additional fresh air vents that may be necessary as long as you advise him of your plans. Home HVAC is not my specialty, but I develop automotive engine cooling and HVAC systems so I have a similar background... not to mention I've spent a lot of time researching home HVAC to ensure that I didn't make a mistake in the planning stage. In my case, I have a 25 year old furnace, but it's being replaced by a high-efficiency model. I will have a mini-split A/C unit along with an HRV. The mini-split A/C system is essentially a downsized central home A/C unit in case you're not familiar with them. The condenser/fan is still mounted outside and the evaporator/blower on the inside. Refrigerant lines connect the two pieces. Condensate can be plumbed to a drain. It will run in the warmer months here in Michigan. The HRV (heat recovery ventilator) is essentially a box housing a fan motor and heat exchanger that allows one to replace the humid air in the fish room with fresh dry outside air while retaining a significant amount (around 80%) of the heat. This will be utilized in the cooler months when humidity is low. My intention is to treat the fishroom as a separate room segregated from the rest of the house. I may decide to take advantage of some of the humid air in the winter by directing it to the finished area of the basement, but for now the room is being treated as a closed system.
tbone - Nice avatar. My idol! :lol:
If you feel you must have the CL, then go for it. But, I would only do it with a PVC bottom and you should consider being able to contain any potential leaks in the future - 15 years is a long time. Personally, I just feel that it's one less thing to worry about later. Plus, OM 4-ways and sand don't mix and I want a thin layer of sand in my display.
No build thread yet. I've been documenting everything in order to create one when the time is right. I'm just finishing up the electrical at the moment - ran a new subpanel with (4) 20 amp GFCI breakers to feed the fish room. In the process of finishing the basement at the same time. Working on a 1937 home has it's challenges, so I'm a bit behind schedule, but feeling the pressure from my wife now that we have a little guy due in July.
I'll give you a sneak peek - Bubble King, Deltec, and Red Dragon are all involved in my build.
Looks like we have similar taste in equipment I love the fact that you're home is following a green mindset. My wife and I are very environmentally concerned and energy efficiency is playing a key role in my decisions in equipment selection for the reef. I'd love to be able to take advantage of solar panels, but we are heavily shaded by mature trees. Solar technology is on the brink of having some major breakthroughs. I believe it will become standard in new home construction in the coming years.
I have a feeling that your HVAC will be fine. The superintendent should be able to consider any additional fresh air vents that may be necessary as long as you advise him of your plans. Home HVAC is not my specialty, but I develop automotive engine cooling and HVAC systems so I have a similar background... not to mention I've spent a lot of time researching home HVAC to ensure that I didn't make a mistake in the planning stage.
In my case, I have a 25 year old furnace, but it's being replaced by a high-efficiency model. I will have a mini-split A/C unit along with an HRV. The mini-split A/C system is essentially a downsized central home A/C unit in case you're not familiar with them. The condenser/fan is still mounted outside and the evaporator/blower on the inside. Refrigerant lines connect the two pieces. Condensate can be plumbed to a drain. It will run in the warmer months here in Michigan. The HRV (heat recovery ventilator) is essentially a box housing a fan motor and heat exchanger that allows one to replace the humid air in the fish room with fresh dry outside air while retaining a significant amount (around 80%) of the heat. This will be utilized in the cooler months when humidity is low. My intention is to treat the fishroom as a separate room segregated from the rest of the house. I may decide to take advantage of some of the humid air in the winter by directing it to the finished area of the basement, but for now the room is being treated as a closed system.tbone - Nice avatar. My idol! :lol:
Dudester
Premium Member
tbone - Duly noted, thank you my friend. I will take your suggestion to heart. I really like the CL for its ability to create random flow along with a circular pattern that promotes detritus removal via the overflow, but I'll definitely give it some more thought. Thanks.
Oldtimer - Sounds like you are going to have a kick arse system in the near future, you are obviously not skimping on the planning phase!
Oldtimer - Sounds like you are going to have a kick arse system in the near future, you are obviously not skimping on the planning phase!
tbone28
Active member
haha, forgot about the RD. too rich for my blood!
Tunze 6201:
Turbelle® stream 6201
(6201.000)
For 800 to 3,000 l (211 to 792 USgal.) aquariums
Flow rate: 5,000 to 20,000 l/h (1,319 to 5,283 USgal./h)
Wattage: max. 55 W
But seriously, have you considered building a false wall to hide PH?
Are you following Bricky's build thread (Big E) on the ELOS forum? He has a beautiful false wall to hide all his big Tunzes
Tunze 6201:
Turbelle® stream 6201
(6201.000)
For 800 to 3,000 l (211 to 792 USgal.) aquariums
Flow rate: 5,000 to 20,000 l/h (1,319 to 5,283 USgal./h)
Wattage: max. 55 W
But seriously, have you considered building a false wall to hide PH?
Are you following Bricky's build thread (Big E) on the ELOS forum? He has a beautiful false wall to hide all his big Tunzes
Dudester
Premium Member
Good point about the false wall, and one that I have considered. The problem is that my tank will be viewable on 2 sides. I could put a false wall along the back, but I already have a 1 foot column obstructing the 4' of depth, and I hate to lose more by covering the pump-holding chamber with wall.
Everyone is giving me great suggestions, and I hope I'm not coming off as 'stuck in my ways' by not following every recommendation. I've gotten some great ideas thus far, many of which have been implemented, and I hope that you all (and others) continue to offer more. Thanks!
Everyone is giving me great suggestions, and I hope I'm not coming off as 'stuck in my ways' by not following every recommendation. I've gotten some great ideas thus far, many of which have been implemented, and I hope that you all (and others) continue to offer more. Thanks!
ReefEnabler
Premium Member
wow wish I would have known there was so many bad experiences with closed loops before I got my 220 with a closedloop on a glass bottom 
intersted in what jnarowe said. i have a glass tank so it would have to be silicon.
also was wondering if anybody had ever considered 'retainer walls' around their CL bulkheads so you could access them with a sandbed there.
I wrote this in another thread let me copy here:
"I wonder if anybody has ever built 'retainer walls' around their CL bulkheads? what if I were to take 4" PVC couplings and glue them to the bottom of the tank around the bulkheads. then I could have the sand everywhere but the bulkheads. And for covering up, I am planning on using marcorock, great stuff foam, epoxyresin and sand to make modular little bases that will surround the plumbing.
I was going to use eggcrate, but I could use just a 3" high or so section of 4" PVC such that it will just pressure fit into the 4" couplings. drill some holes in the PVC and use zip ties to attach rocks that completely hide the PVC, foam up the gaps and then resin the sand onto the foam.
then I will be able to pull off the little mini-islands to give me access to the bulkheads and there won't be much sand down there. who knows maybe these little 'bunkers' would be a good habitat for something
anybody try something like that before?"
intersted in what jnarowe said. i have a glass tank so it would have to be silicon.
also was wondering if anybody had ever considered 'retainer walls' around their CL bulkheads so you could access them with a sandbed there.
I wrote this in another thread let me copy here:
"I wonder if anybody has ever built 'retainer walls' around their CL bulkheads? what if I were to take 4" PVC couplings and glue them to the bottom of the tank around the bulkheads. then I could have the sand everywhere but the bulkheads. And for covering up, I am planning on using marcorock, great stuff foam, epoxyresin and sand to make modular little bases that will surround the plumbing.
I was going to use eggcrate, but I could use just a 3" high or so section of 4" PVC such that it will just pressure fit into the 4" couplings. drill some holes in the PVC and use zip ties to attach rocks that completely hide the PVC, foam up the gaps and then resin the sand onto the foam.
then I will be able to pull off the little mini-islands to give me access to the bulkheads and there won't be much sand down there. who knows maybe these little 'bunkers' would be a good habitat for something
anybody try something like that before?"
ReefEnabler
Premium Member
hey at least my display stand will have a 4" high plastic drip pan lining the whole inside with a bulkhead going to a waste drain. so at least a closed loop bulkhead leak wouldn't be a *complete* disaster
jnarowe
New member
what's wrong with permanent? If you aren't comfortable doing it yourself, I am sure AGE would take care of it. Afterall, they do route out where bulkheads go and do plenty of custom stuff.I mean, why even use a blukhead? You could just cement a block inside or out and drill it for the size pipe you want to use, and weld it up.
I am not a fan of closed loops either in that I just don't like the holes. I would still come over the top with piping though for return flow.
I am not a fan of closed loops either in that I just don't like the holes. I would still come over the top with piping though for return flow.
ReefDoctorMicromussas
In Memoriam
Dude wasnt it you that told me about the Inland Diamond saw?
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