Dudester’s 450g corner in-wall and tank room – help with design
- Thread starter Dudester
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ReefEnabler
Premium Member
is there anybody here who busted the bottom of their tank when the closed loop outlet got bumped? or are we mostly talking about leaks being introduced that way?
ReefEnabler
Premium Member
dblpost
ReefEnabler
Premium Member
that does sound scary.
i see nobody has commented on my idea to make the bulkheads accessible without draining the tank (last post on page3)...
i bet it would work to some extent in that you wouldn't have to remove the sandbed.
i see nobody has commented on my idea to make the bulkheads accessible without draining the tank (last post on page3)...
i bet it would work to some extent in that you wouldn't have to remove the sandbed.
melev
Well-known member
How tall is this retaining wall? It would have to be pretty tall to not have to drain the tank. If it is just higher than your sand bed, sand will still find a way in due to flow in the tank. And if you had to deal with that bulkhead, you would have to drain that compartment completely, including any water above 'the wall'.
Dudester
Premium Member
jnarowe, RyanBrucks, Oldtimer, tbone - I can't believe how this discussion of 'TO CL OR NOT TO CL' has sent me into a virtual tailspin. My brain has been scrambled. I know for a fact that no holes in the bottom is safer in the long run than any holes, this is indisputable. And since this tank will be in place for many, many years, it only seems logical that I should build a bullet-proof system. But I have to balance this with what will be aesthetically pleasing to me, and what will ultimately bring me the most joy from the tank. 'Bullet-proof' would mean no closed loop and many powerheads, internal waveboxes instead of external, and no overflow or sump, but come on, I'm not going to do that! Even if I did, there's no guarantee that a seam wouldn't leak, or when my daughter invites a boy to the house and I'm cleaning my gun, there might be an accidental discharge that sends a bullet through the front viewing pane :uzi: :love1: . JK, I don't even own a gun. Every overflow box, whether internal or external, has bulkheads that can leak. I realize that 10 holes in the bottom of a tank is riskier than 2, but there truly is no bullet-proof system when we put a glass box in our homes and fill them with more water than we would use to take a bath. As I see it, it all comes down to risk assessment, or the risk:benefit ratio. It's a lot like investing in stocks, I suppose. Am I going to be happier with treasury bonds or hedge funds?
Well, I'm a mutual fund guy. I need the occasional thrill. So I think I'm going to order this tank with one closed loop drilled into the bottom. I'll put SUBV's at every bulkhead immediately below the tank, so if ever I decide to take down the CL it will be as easy as turning a valve and removing the attached plumbing. If the column adjacent to the external overflow can be removed, I'll also go with 2 external waveboxes flanking the overflow. I should speak with the builder soon to see if this is possible.
boozeman - Thanks for the well-wishes, and please feel free to provide suggestions.
ReefDoctorMicromussas - I don't know the first thing about Inland Diamond saws, but I have chimed in on your thread on occasion about other topics. With your similarly-sized system (and a beautiful one at that) I would love to get some pointers from you as well.
melev - Thanks for addressing Ryan's question, I agree with what you wrote completely.
Well, I'm a mutual fund guy. I need the occasional thrill. So I think I'm going to order this tank with one closed loop drilled into the bottom. I'll put SUBV's at every bulkhead immediately below the tank, so if ever I decide to take down the CL it will be as easy as turning a valve and removing the attached plumbing. If the column adjacent to the external overflow can be removed, I'll also go with 2 external waveboxes flanking the overflow. I should speak with the builder soon to see if this is possible.
boozeman - Thanks for the well-wishes, and please feel free to provide suggestions.
ReefDoctorMicromussas - I don't know the first thing about Inland Diamond saws, but I have chimed in on your thread on occasion about other topics. With your similarly-sized system (and a beautiful one at that) I would love to get some pointers from you as well.
melev - Thanks for addressing Ryan's question, I agree with what you wrote completely.
ReefEnabler
Premium Member
Marc I guess you are right. only real benefit of that idea is it would keep 'some or most' of the sand out. i plan on a 5" or so DSB so it could help if it ever came down to it. I realize there would be a small layer of sand, but i picture just kinda flushing it out with some FW once the bulkhead is removed. Also realize youd still have to drain the water to the height of the sandbed.
like I said i'm lucky that under my display is a plastic drip pan with another bulkhead to waste, so the main risk is to my livestock if a bulkhead leaks and I'm not around to notice. (i know, big risk still)
but yes I'm also aware that in the event of catastrophic failure, the drip pan/drain isn't going to mean a thing and my house will be flooded no matter what I do
Good luck Dudester!
like I said i'm lucky that under my display is a plastic drip pan with another bulkhead to waste, so the main risk is to my livestock if a bulkhead leaks and I'm not around to notice. (i know, big risk still)
but yes I'm also aware that in the event of catastrophic failure, the drip pan/drain isn't going to mean a thing and my house will be flooded no matter what I do
Good luck Dudester!
Sounds like you're following your gut Dudester. Sometimes, that's the best approach. I hope it all goes well for you. With a tank as deep as yours I do agree that turbulant flow is a bit more complicated to achieve w/o a closed loop. With my 30" deep tank, I believe I can get away with less powerheads and still achieve the kind of flow I need w/o a closed loop. One way or the other, your tank will be awesome. I can't wait to see it completed.
melev
Well-known member
Mike, if you are comfortable with the closed loop through the base of the tank and AGE is comfortable by warrantying such a design, then go for it. I get nervous around such tanks and doubt I'll ever get one drilled that way. That's me.
However, if you like it and feel it is a negligible risk, then proceed. I'd rather have that invisible flow in your tank then see powerheads. I keep wishing someone would invent an invisible powerhead. I'd be one of the first to buy one.
<b>Ryan</b> - In your case, I would put the largest sump you can under the tank. If the bulkhead leaks, it drips into the sump. If the tank blows out, all bets are off.
However, if you like it and feel it is a negligible risk, then proceed. I'd rather have that invisible flow in your tank then see powerheads. I keep wishing someone would invent an invisible powerhead. I'd be one of the first to buy one.
<b>Ryan</b> - In your case, I would put the largest sump you can under the tank. If the bulkhead leaks, it drips into the sump. If the tank blows out, all bets are off.
tbone28
Active member
Mike, some more food for thought. In place of the CL, what about a surge tank? That's a possibility since you'll have a fishroom
www.acrylicandglassexhibits.com
www.acrylicandglassexhibits.com
tbone28
Active member
^ Mike, the owner of an LFS has a display tank (SPS), and it's only sources of flow:
1) return pump
2) a single MJ1200 - modded (I think)
3) surge tank
It is a beautiful tank. If any Bay Area members are following this thread, they will probably agree with me (Lucky Goldfish - Hunter's tank)
1) return pump
2) a single MJ1200 - modded (I think)
3) surge tank
It is a beautiful tank. If any Bay Area members are following this thread, they will probably agree with me (Lucky Goldfish - Hunter's tank)
Dudester
Premium Member
RyanBrucks and Oldtimer - Thanks for your considerate comments.
melev - Don't be nervous for me buddy, it'll be all right! Yeah, I think I've gotta do it, I really don't want to cram the thing with powerheads. I thought more about the CL coming over the top, but I'd still need a drain, and a bulkhead-PVC bond has to be more secure than a bulkhead-glass bond.
tbone and LNell - Way to think outside the box my friends! I like it, but of course I know less about surge tanks than I do about pretty much everything else in this hobby. Guess I better start reading!
Here's another topic for the moment. I was thinking about silencing the overflows and there are many options out there. I currently use CJ standpipes but other options include the gurgle busters, Stocktons (?), and the system with a risen PVC drain and a 2nd drain on a gate valve, can't remember the name for this. Anyway, what do you other large tank owners use? I like the CJ's because they pretty much never clog and they have a very low profile, but the height isn't the easiest thing to adjust. I'd love to get some opinions on this. Thanks in advance everyone.
melev - Don't be nervous for me buddy, it'll be all right! Yeah, I think I've gotta do it, I really don't want to cram the thing with powerheads. I thought more about the CL coming over the top, but I'd still need a drain, and a bulkhead-PVC bond has to be more secure than a bulkhead-glass bond.
tbone and LNell - Way to think outside the box my friends! I like it, but of course I know less about surge tanks than I do about pretty much everything else in this hobby. Guess I better start reading!
Here's another topic for the moment. I was thinking about silencing the overflows and there are many options out there. I currently use CJ standpipes but other options include the gurgle busters, Stocktons (?), and the system with a risen PVC drain and a 2nd drain on a gate valve, can't remember the name for this. Anyway, what do you other large tank owners use? I like the CJ's because they pretty much never clog and they have a very low profile, but the height isn't the easiest thing to adjust. I'd love to get some opinions on this. Thanks in advance everyone.
reef / aholic
New member
Mike - I step away for a few months and now this!!!! I went to "THE MASTERS" back in 2001!!! I did not know you played golf; I have played up in your area "Austin Country Club and Barton Creek" a few times!!! By the way, very impressive on the new build and it takes a lot for me to be impressed!!!
Bax
Premium Member
Dude
If you think you have the space for a surge tank, you should explore that too. Since silence is an issue, design is everything for a surge or they can be loud. Jonathan has done a lot of looking into these and may have a comment or two.
Back to the CL. Drilling the bottom of a tank makes me pucker in places you just shouldn't. But with these A.G.E. tanks, it seems to me if you're spending the money on the PVC bottom, why not drill it. Is there risk, sure! There's is risk in crossing the street, starting your car and driving, and taking an elevator. Point is, with the A.G.E. tank you are minimizing the risk of "catastrophic" failure. That leaves the bulkheads. Since you are close to A.G.E. , maybe have them glue the BHs in after the tank is in place. And, as you learned from Invincible, test, test, test.
Like you've said this is a 15 year commitment, take your time bud, build what you want, it'll be worth it!
If you think you have the space for a surge tank, you should explore that too. Since silence is an issue, design is everything for a surge or they can be loud. Jonathan has done a lot of looking into these and may have a comment or two.
Back to the CL. Drilling the bottom of a tank makes me pucker in places you just shouldn't. But with these A.G.E. tanks, it seems to me if you're spending the money on the PVC bottom, why not drill it. Is there risk, sure! There's is risk in crossing the street, starting your car and driving, and taking an elevator. Point is, with the A.G.E. tank you are minimizing the risk of "catastrophic" failure. That leaves the bulkheads. Since you are close to A.G.E. , maybe have them glue the BHs in after the tank is in place. And, as you learned from Invincible, test, test, test.
Like you've said this is a 15 year commitment, take your time bud, build what you want, it'll be worth it!
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