Fish health through slime

[sabbath]

In todays modern economy, live clams, live oysters, and live lobster should be readily available for anyone seeking this out in any modern city in America.
Patrick

Hmmm I will have to look around. The lobster is going to be to big for my nano tank. Might even turn my tank into a predator tank. Or do they have like 2" ones. But maybe some baby clams.

Is this what you are doing? This would be a good place for a good right up on doing this right. So some of us reading this can have fish with good slim too

 

[billsreef]

What works for you would not work for many unseasoned reefers.

Not to mentioned seasoned reefers, professional aquarists, and even Mother Nature herself

That said Feeding properly is a big issue for unseasoned reefers IMO.

Good quality feed is indeed an issue. High quality marine based feeds being the best for marine fish

In todays modern economy, live clams, live oysters, and live lobster should be readily available for anyone seeking this out in any modern city in America.
Patrick

One thing to keep in mind. Live seafood that has been days out of the ocean has been depleting it's reserves, and therefore it's nutritional value. Fresh frozen at the source is actually going to be more nutritious as a result. Not to mention it's kind of hard to feed only a 1/4 of an oyster if the whole oyster would be overfeeding the tank

 

[Paul B]

Not sure why you're trying to call out Bill. Is there a point to it? What works for you would not work for many unseasoned reefers.

Bill is a friend of mine and we have been having this discussion for years. He is a smart man and a good aquarist we just have different opinions on quarantining and diseases.
IMO feeding "good" frozen food is not the entire answer and it will not keep your fish disease free as you discovered. Only live food will do that along with the proper frozen food which is whole foods such as clams (that I think you can get anywhere in the US) Frozen squid, shrimp, scallop or octopus will not keep your fish disease free as those foods contain only the muscle parts of those creatures. The nutrition fish need is in the guts and when you feed clams, you are also feeding the guts.
The fish don't care if you can't get them the foods that will keep them in spawning condition. I am just trying to report the foods that will keep them in that condition and disease free. If you can't get the foods that will do that, then you will have to always quarantine, I don't know another way around it. I don't collect the food I give my fish (except some amphipods) I buy the clams in a supermarket and the worms in a LFS but I know many people buy them on line. That article I wrote about slime was researshed from scientific papers. I didn't make up the parts about the antibodies myself as I am not a scientist, just a bald, retired electrician with a fish tank.
All frozen foods are probably better than dry foods but to keep fish disease free by using their own immune system, fish must be in perfect condition and perfect condition is, for a fish, pregnant. Live foods are needed for that.
I realize it is harder to get and keep live foods and that is a problem. But that is also the reason people lose fish to disease. If your fish are not spawning or in spawning condition they are suseptable to ich, velvet and everything else which is why the disease threads are the most popular.

 

[Subsea]

Not to mentioned seasoned reefers, professional aquarists, and even Mother Nature herself



Good quality feed is indeed an issue. High quality marine based feeds being the best for marine fish



One thing to keep in mind. Live seafood that has been days out of the ocean has been depleting it's reserves, and therefore it's nutritional value. Fresh frozen at the source is actually going to be more nutritious as a result. Not to mention it's kind of hard to feed only a 1/4 of an oyster if the whole oyster would be overfeeding the tank

Bill,
The solution is very simple with not overfeeding a whole clam to a small tank. As the owner and therefore, the top of the food chain, you should eat your fill and give the tank the leftovers.
Laissez la bonne temps roulee.
Patrick

 

[Paul B]

I also feed my fish live white worms which I bought online and keep in a box of soil and they have been reproducing over a year. Anyone can get them. They look like this.


For the blackworms, I built a keeper and keep them forever like this. It is some work but I don't ever want to post on a disease thread or have to report that I lost even one fish to disease, and so far, except for jumping out I don't think I ever have.
These worms come from California and I live on Long Island about as far from California in the US as you can get.



I am pretty sure you can get clams anywhere, but I am not sure.


I realize I am not a Noob and many people are, which is why I am trying to impart some of my experience on Noobs because when I was a noob, there were no people who had salt water fish and no internet so I learned these things on my own. I am not trying to be little anyone as that doesn't do me any good. I think I have been doing this long enough to allow me to try to teach these methods which I have proven work and can work for anyone as I am far from the smartest one on here with my high school education.

 

[Aquarist007]

What I can't understand is that there is some difference between live food and freshly caught(dead) food.
Similarly with frozen food. I can't see any difference between the dead clam above to a real clam to a frozen clam( that has not been schuked)
I am referring to whole sea food that has not been chopped up so that it does contain internal organs

"because when I was a noob, there were no people who had salt water fish and no internet so I learned these things on my own. I am not trying to be little anyone as that doesn't do me any good. I think I have been doing this long enough to allow me to try to teach these methods which I have proven work and can work for anyone as I am far from the smartest one on here with my high school education."

You have been one of the greatest teachers I have ever known

However this the advanced forum so one should expect a healthy discussion. Paul, it's nothing to do with being allowed. Your main thread is in the reef discussion form where newer reefers would accept and appreciate it more then in the advanced forum

Actually I think there is a lot of rude and discourteous statements that are "overlooked" on this forum more than the other. Eg a reefer I respect for their knowledge told me to " stick that to my brain" that's very condescending.
It's like suck it up buttercup if you want to play with the big boys

This is one forum too where reefers are not "going to take your word for it" anecdotal ;but want scientific proof. Something I find hard to understand when most of the participants in this forum have way way more practical experience then they have raw scientific (experimental" results and realize the value of knowledge gained from experience

 

[Aquarist007]

"I realize it is harder to get and keep live foods and that is a problem. But that is also the reason people lose fish to disease. If your fish are not spawning or in spawning condition they are suseptable to ich, velvet and everything else which is why the disease threads are the most popular."

This might be a first for me Paul in the thousands of posts we have had with each other but man I gotta disagree with you here:eek1:
It's a sign of a good teacher when a student learns enough from their teacher to disagree.

I have not lost a fish to disease in the25 tanks I am looking after in a few years. Most of them only get fed frozen shrimp once a week from me . But I have my clients feed them mysis and brine shrimp daily. We're talking overall ~500 fish
There not spawning but they are not dying from disease either.

 

[billsreef]

Bill is a friend of mine and we have been having this discussion for years. He is a smart man and a good aquarist we just have different opinions on quarantining and diseases.

One of the reasons for our differing opinions is that the idea of live foods allowing captive fish to disease free makes no sense, especially in light of the fact that it doesn't even work that way in nature. We agree that good nutrition (and whole seafood, guts and all is good) this important, just not on the concept that it can keep fish disease free...even if they are in breeding condition. Outside of the miracle of Paul's reported results, those miraculous results just haven't been seen anyplace else.

Heck, I can (and have) catch a well fed healthy, breeding condition lionfish, feed it fresh caught whole live fish, that have been caught within yards of where the lionfish was caught, and amyloodinium is still a problem....despite the whole fresh live seafood. Not to mention, if eating whole live seafood prevented disease, a number of researchers I know would be out of work since they study disease in fish that eat nothing but.

Bill,
The solution is very simple with not overfeeding a whole clam to a small tank. As the owner and therefore, the top of the food chain, you should eat your fill and give the tank the leftovers.
Laissez la bonne temps roulee.
Patrick

Good idea. Though I might have just as much of a problem sharing clams on the half shell with my tank as I do Vodka

 

[Aquarist007]

Bill, has anyone proved that live food is any different nutritionally then caught seafood or frozen whole( not gutted ) sea food?
IMO the answer to this question impacts directly on the slime theory of Paul's
Anecdotally I've formed my own opinion but Would like a more scientific answer if possible

 

[billsreef]

Bill, has anyone proved that live food is any different nutritionally then caught seafood or frozen whole( not gutted ) sea food?
IMO the answer to this question impacts directly on the slime theory of Paul's
Anecdotally I've formed my own opinion but Would like a more scientific answer if possible

I'm not aware of any studies showing such a difference. Other than some potential for broken cells (from the freezing and defrosting), there really shouldn't be any significant (if any) nutritional difference between live and fresh frozen.

 

[Aquarist007]

I'm not aware of any studies showing such a difference. Other than some potential for broken cells (from the freezing and defrosting), there really shouldn't be any significant (if any) nutritional difference between live and fresh frozen.

Thanks. Appreciate your answer .last April I switched over to only feeding my fish raw seafood which I have to thaw. I do clip kelp sheets and or romaine lettuce to the side of the tank.
Glad to know I am on the right track:idea:

 

[billsreef]

I learned a neat trick with frozen fillets from curator of the NMFS aquarium up in Woods Hole back when I was a intern with NMFS age and growth unit....spent much of my spared time in the aquarium Take a sharp knife and scrape the frozen fillet, while still frozen, and you'll get a bunch of shavings that are a perfect size for feeding small fish

 

[Aquarist007]

I learned a neat trick with frozen fillets from curator of the NMFS aquarium up in Woods Hole back when I was a intern with NMFS age and growth unit....spent much of my spared time in the aquarium Take a sharp knife and scrape the frozen fillet, while still frozen, and you'll get a bunch of shavings that are a perfect size for feeding small fish

Thanks will do
Another tip I do is cut up the food over the water. I use a cutting board and rinse that right in the tank to get any nutrition that might have been lost by cell rupture

 

[Paul B]

Similarly with frozen food. I can't see any difference between the dead clam above to a real clam to a frozen clam( that has not been schuked)

With clams it does not matter if it is live or dead, I don't know why, maybe the clam knows.

We agree that good nutrition (and whole seafood, guts and all is good) this important, just not on the concept that it can keep fish disease free...even if they are in breeding condition. Outside of the miracle of Paul's reported results, those miraculous results just haven't been seen anyplace else.

It doesn't have to be seen anywhere else as I doubt there are many people that have been feeding live worms to their fish every day for many years. If you find someone who has done that, and their fish are getting sick, then my results are screwed up and maybe I dreamed all of it. :worried:

Heck, I can (and have) catch a well fed healthy, breeding condition lionfish, feed it fresh caught whole live fish, that have been caught within yards of where the lionfish was caught, and amyloodinium is still a problem....despite the whole fresh live seafood. Not to mention, if eating whole live seafood prevented disease, a number of researchers I know would be out of work since they study disease in fish that eat nothing but.

Bill, Lionfish probably hate you but besides that I did mention that frozen or even fresh food will not do it. (I know you said you fed the thing live fish)I did say that live food is necessary to have fish immune from everything, supplemented with frozen food. I don't know why your lionfish croak. Maybe we can make them all croak as they are an invasive species anyway.
Maybe the immune system of the worms gets transferred to the fish or maybe the Fairy God Mother did something, but whatever it is live foods should be fed every day to get the benefit I am talking about. As I have said to many times, if you can't get the foods that will get your fish immune, the fish don't care and your fish will always be suseptable to diseases. I can't help it but frozen foods alone, while very good are not what the fish eats in the sea. Most fish don't own a freezer. It is live foods that do this. You work in a lab with a bunch of researchers, ask them why the live foods I feed every day keep my fish immune from everything. I think my long term experiment is scientific enough. Yes I know fish in the sea have parasites and internal worms. The skin parasites are not bothering thm as the parasites are just resting there, perhaps texting their friends but they are not killing those fish because of the live foods they eat at "every "meal. Internal worms that fish harbor is from eating fish that have worms. Those worms by pass the fishes slime and enter through the stomach. Internal worms evolved to be able to pass through the low pH of the stomach and burry through to the muscle of the fish. Many larger fish have worms as you and I know. But they don't usually kill the fish. So if you want your fish immune IMO feed live worms "and" frozen whole foods every day. If you don't want to do that, you probably should not read any of my posts as that is the basis of my fish keeping skills and is the basis of my book. Anyone on here can write their own theories or write their own book, what can I say? :beer:

 

[Aquarist007]

Not arguing about your findings but you must have an idea as to why these live worms make a difference Paul.
Not the scientist but the reefer in us makes us seek out why

 

[Paul B]

It is from experience Capn. The only thing I do different from most people is feed live worms every day. I do add bacteria from the sea but I don't think that would help with immunity although I think it helps with water conditions. As I wrote, fish do 3 things, spawn, have immunity and grow. They need a lot of energy for those things and if they are not spawning, that means their body is not healthy enough because it is not getting the nutrition it needs. If they are not getting enough nutrition for spawning, they are not getting enough nutrition to keep their immune system functioning. I didn't make that all up. I researched scientific papers as Bill always tells me I should do. I can't figure this stuff out myself as I am not an immunobiologist, but there are people who do that and I took that information along with my observations to write that post. The people why are loseing fish to all sorts of things are not feeding correctly IMO. If fish are not pregnant, they are not healthy as all fish are pregnant all the time, that is the normal state of a fish. I wish I could make this stuff up but I can't. As I said, anyone can write a thread saying I am nuts. It doesn't bother me, I just write what I think is correct from watching these slimy things for 60 years. :bounce1:

Just google fish immunity or fish slime as I did and you will get a plethora of information. More than you can read.

 

[Paul B]

Take a sharp knife and scrape the frozen fillet, while still frozen, and you'll get a bunch of shavings that are a perfect size for feeding small fish

Thats how I feed clams.

 

[billsreef]

Not sure where you got the idea my Lionfish croak. My croakers certainly croak, but my Lionfish lack that ability. Maybe if I feed them live juveniles croakers they'll learn how to croak. However, feeding them live juvenile croakers certainly won't make them immune to parasites in the aquarium when it can't even make them immune to those parasites in the wild.

As for fish not dying in the wild from parasites, it has to do with being consumed by some other fish long before they are weakened to the point of dying from the infection...not from not being bothered by them, or "immune" to them. Simply, in the wild, when you get weakened from disease you can expect something to eat you before that disease kills you. Rather common place in other ecosystems, such as terrestrial ones as well. If eating that natural all live diet was sufficient to make a fish immune, these diseases would not exist in the first place. Yet they do.

 

[billsreef]

BTW, proper shucking of clams does not require freezing them first

 

[Aquarist007]

It's still a real stretch or fathom �� To compare the real reef to our glass cages. Weaken fish usually die quickly and hopefully are removed as quickly
IMO the only way to solve this debate would be to find a tank similar to PaulB with spawning fish that are not feed real worms.

Paul, will dew worms wOrk like black worms?