Fish health through slime

[boxfishpooalot]

The idea that feeding live foods "every day" would prevent diseases is rather a strange thought when you consider all these diseases exist rather well in nature where the fish are in fact eating the proper foods every day. While proper nutrition does indeed go a long ways to maintaining a fish in good health, it is not a magic bullet that is guaranteed to prevent disease. In fact, live foods can be a vector for disease transmission.



To get the pH low enough to cause that particular problem with slime coat, the pH needs to drop well into the acidic range. Something that can't happen in a tank full of calcium carbonate substrate (sand and rock).

That's good to know. Where do you get this info that it will effect the slime coat at only low ph?

 

[Paul B]

In fact, live foods can be a vector for disease transmission.

Bill, you know I love you like a brother, but I disagree so much, I can't even make an analogy as to how much I disagree. I disagree so much that.... That. That. I can't even imagine how much I disagree with you. I forgot what I was talking about. Oh yes, I remember. Bill as you know I have been keeping fish since at least last Tuesday and in all that time I have never, not once saw a disease that would kill or even give my fish an upset stomach. This scientific experiment has been going on in my tank since about 1978 or so. I know some of your friends have more degrees than a thermometer but what they probably don't have is a 43 year old tank that has not had a disease for such a long time by feeding worms and not quarantining. If you can show me an older study that has been going on continuously I will agree with you. I know the lab people you work with will disagree, but their study's are flawed that they are in a lab setting and I don't think they have been feeding live worms as I recommend to the same fish for that many years so they can't possibly study the effects. My clowns alone are 24 years old and never had acne, Ebola, flukes, flounders or anything else and I have been throwing fish in that tank for decades with no quarantine from every store in New York including plenty from the Sea. I think with that kind of result, that kind of discounts live food transferring any disease. Plus, all of my paired fish are spawning and as you know, I feel spawning fish rarely if ever get sick. Or else I am just blessed with really, really good luck. :beer:
This of course is my opinion. If the fish in your lab get sick from live foods, the people taking care of the fish are doing it wrong. :smokin:
Bill, you didn't read my fish slime post did you? No, tell the truth, you skipped over much of it, I can tell.
By the way, I am writing a book before I get senile, but you probably don't want to read it because you would disagree with a lot of it. :lol:
But Bill, I still love you like a brother, OK maybe nephew

 

[Aquarist007]

To get the pH low enough to cause that particular problem with slime coat, the pH needs to drop well into the acidic range. Something that can't happen in a tank full of calcium carbonate substrate (sand and rock).

Doesn't carbon dosing with vinegar... I saw one post where they are using 50 % glacial acetic..... Make the odds more probable that this could happen

 

[Paul B]

I can't comment on pH doing anything with the slime coat and I doubt anyone else can either. Bill would know more about that then I would as that falls into the realm of research which can be done in a lab. I also have no idea about dosing vinegar or know why you would need to put salad dressing in a reef tank. My bacteria know what they are supposed to do with no help from salad dressing. In the 60 years I have been keeping fish I have never, not once had to change pH and hopefully, I never will. But I know fish slime as I grew up in a sea food market covered with the stuff. :bum:

 

[Aquarist007]

The idea that feeding live foods "every day" would prevent diseases is rather a strange thought when you consider all these diseases exist rather well in nature where the fish are in fact eating the proper foods every day. While proper nutrition does indeed go a long ways to maintaining a fish in good health, it is not a magic bullet that is guaranteed to prevent disease. In fact, live foods can be a

I believe you and other most experienced pros have said that you can't compare fish exposure in the ocean to that of a glass cage. Shear size and currents ensure that exposure in the ocean is minimal

 

[Aquarist007]

I can't comment on pH doing anything with the slime coat and I doubt anyone else can either. Bill would know more about that then I would as that falls into the realm of research which can be done in a lab. I also have no idea about dosing vinegar or know why you would need to put salad dressing in a reef tank. My bacteria know what they are supposed to do with no help from salad dressing. In the 60 years I have been keeping fish I have never, not once had to change pH and hopefully, I never will. But I know fish slime as I grew up in a sea food market covered with the stuff. :bum:

What's an improved or healthy slime coat like...eg thicker or denser, harder for parasites to bore into etc ?

 

[Paul B]

It is true diseases are prevalent in the sea but they prey on weak, old or injured fish. Healthy, spawning fish in the sea are not getting sick and if they are, they are not dying. In the 300 hours I have spent underwater I don't think I have ever seen a diseased fish.
But no matter what I think, no one can answer the question as to why is my tank still here? What happened to all the parasites that I am sure I have added in the last 4 decades? Why did the severly ich infested copperbands I put in there get cured and are living happily in someone elses tank after I gave them away? Why are all my paired fish spawning? Why have I been feeding live foods from stores and the sea almost every week for many years with no diseases what so ever? How long is long enough of a test to see if fish eating live foods are disease free? Does my tank have to go fifty years? How about sixty? Would that prove my theory or is a 6 month lab study done under laboratory conditions more conclusive? Inquiring minds want to know, and so do I. :reading:

Capn, the thickness of the slime coat is of no consequence, it is the antibodies the fish secretes into the slime that matters. Sick, injured or weak fish may exude more slime.

 

[billsreef]

That's good to know. Where do you get this info that it will effect the slime coat at only low ph?

One good read on out of bounds pH is Noga's "Fish Disease, Diagnosis and Treatment". One of his reference's on the subject is from Martin Moe, mentioning 7.8 to 8.4 being tolerable for fish. That bottom limit of 7.8 is something I'd agree with based on experience. The article capn_hylinur provided, while aimed at FW, talked about very acidic and very alkaline...below 6 and over 9 in regards to those slime coat problems. Quite an extreme from what is likely in a reef tank.

Bill, you know I love you like a brother, but I disagree so much, I can't even make an analogy as to how much I disagree.

We can agree on both points

Bill, you didn't read my fish slime post did you?

I did

Doesn't carbon dosing with vinegar... I saw one post where they are using 50 % glacial acetic..... Make the odds more probable that this could happen

Adding acids like that would certainly raise the possibility of dropping the pH far too much. Wouldn't take much of an overdose.

I believe you and other most experienced pros have said that you can't compare fish exposure in the ocean to that of a glass cage. Shear size and currents ensure that exposure in the ocean is minimal

Yup, and those fish in the ocean living in the mother natures environment and eating fresher foods than even Paul can provide still have plenty of parasites.

It is true diseases are prevalent in the sea but they prey on weak, old or injured fish.

It's the weak, old and/or injured fish that are likely to die from them in the wild, but it is very much also the young, strong and healthy that get parasites in the wild. I've seen plenty of fish lice, copepods, and others infecting healthy fish such as bluefish, stripped bass, menhaden, etc. up in LI waters. In the tropics I've seen plenty of the same in tangs, wrasses, jacks, etc. Caught plenty of juvenile fish, as well as adults, that had Amyloodinium among other parasites, so really there are plenty of naturally occurring infected fish that do not fit the bill of weak, old or injured

In the 300 hours I have spent underwater I don't think I have ever seen a diseased fish.

Maybe you should borrow my mask, it has prescription lens

BTW, when you spent all that time in the seafood market, did you ever take a close look at wild caught Codfish fillets? They are nearly 100% loaded with parasites. Makes them a favorite fish for people that study fish parasites

Would that prove my theory or is a 6 month lab study done under laboratory conditions more conclusive? Inquiring minds want to know, and so do I. :reading:

As with any good science, replication of the results by someone else to show that your results are truly repeatable by others

 

[shark2]

Boxfishpooalot, don't buy bloodworms for your fish. Bloodworms are not worms but insect larval and not an appropriate food. Worms are worms and insects are bugs.

Tell that to all my fish that are spawning. Some people call some types of insect larvae bloodworms. There are also real blood worms.

I love seeing the bloodworms crawling through the mud in the ocean. I never seen blackworms in the ocean but I see lots of bloodworms. Now I know that they are not healthy I will tell all the fish in the ocean not to eat them. Maybe if they stop eating them there will be no more disease in the ocean and all the fish will live happily ever after.

I will also tell my spawning fish to stop spawning because they are not suppose to spawn while eating bloodworms. I will tell my 12 year old spawning clowns to stop spawning. I even have spawning fish that are only eating sustainable aquatics pellets. There are many ways to keep a fish healthy and spawning.

You can get blood worms here.

http://www.mainebait.com

Paulb do you think your diatom filter and the copper you use has anything to do with parasite reduction?

 

[Paul B]

I also collect real bloodworms and they are great food. The things sold in pet shops as bloodworms are insect larvae so if you have real bloodworms that is why your fish are spawning. I love real worms.

It's the weak, old and/or injured fish that are likely to die from them in the wild, but it is very much also the young, strong and healthy that get parasites in the wild. I've seen plenty of fish lice, copepods, and others infecting healthy fish such as bluefish, stripped bass, menhaden, etc. up in LI waters. In the tropics I've seen plenty of the same in tangs, wrasses, jacks, etc. Caught plenty of juvenile fish, as well as adults, that had Amyloodinium among other parasites, so really there are plenty of naturally occurring infected fish that do not fit the bill of weak, old or injured

Paracites, lice and everything are on fish and yes I have seen plenty of worms in sea food fish, but those fish didn't die from those things because if they did, I would not have seen them in a sea food market. My fish probably have some ich in there someplace and I think of that as a good thing. It keeps their immune system doing what it is supposed to do because if you quarantine everything like some people advise, your fish will not be immune from anything.:hmm1: I am not concerned with the fish harboring parasites, I am concerned with parasites that kill the fish and as I said, artichokes may kill Artie but they ain't killing my fish. My fish laugh at parasites, they are laughing right now because you still didn't answer any of my questions, or is it true that I am really lucky or should I keep the tank going for another 6 years until it is fifty? I am not sure that is long enough for this study. :dance:

 

[Paul B]

Paulb do you think your diatom filter and the copper you use has anything to do with parasite reduction?

No I don't. I have not used copper in my reef since probably 1978 or so, I don't remember and I only use a diatiom filter for a few hours once a year. I can't even stir up my tank now because I have five pipefish and they don't survive that, I think their tiny gills get clogged. I have treated fish with ich that I have gotten for free from a store with a diatom filter. I keep the fish in a tank with no gravel and copper where I run a diatom filter. My theory is that any parasites that fall off the fish will get sucked up in the filter and not re-infect the fish. It has worked twice on fish but I never recomended it.
As for bloodworms, I can collect them here as well as sand worms. The only problem is the ones I can collect are very large and could eat the fish. Any small ones I find along with any other thing I collect I throw in my tank for food. Especially amphipods which I collect almost every week in the summer.
Here is a video of some amphipods. Bill can't put these, or bloodworms in his tank until he quarantines them for 21 days. :eek2:

 

[gbru316]

Just a thought: perhaps the rarity of wild diseased fish is due to the magnitude of predation present on the reef?

We usually don't have higher order predators in our tanks that would otherwise make a quick meal out of a weakened fish.

 

[Paul B]

Yes thanks, I know that thought and weakened fish would certainly get eaten but fish with a few parasites would not have a greater change of being killed than any other fish. All fish harbor parasites on their slime but the fish with the weakened immune systems are the fish that allow the parasite to get through the slime unimpeded and make it to the delicate skin. A healthy fish with a healthy immune system would eliminate the parasite in it's slime before it caused any harm. The slime also extends into the gills. Parasites are of no concern to parasites and the two organisms live together with no problems as long as the fish remains healthy in other ways.

 

[Sugar Magnolia]

Not sure why you're trying to call out Bill. Is there a point to it? What works for you would not work for many unseasoned reefers.

 

[sabbath]

Not sure why you're trying to call out Bill. Is there a point to it? What works for you would not work for many unseasoned reefers.

Agree. I just lost half of my fish to Velvet trying to feed them good frozen food and the Tangs with lots of Nori. Looking to do strict QT from here on out.

I live in Minnesota so getting good live food from the ocean is a little difficult.

 

[Aquarist007]

Not sure why you're trying to call out Bill. Is there a point to it? What works for you would not work for many unseasoned reefers.

From observation feeding only live sea food has increased the color and activity of my fish. Mortality rate is nil compared to when I started out
I don't know how you would prove that the composition of the slime coat has changed.. More antibodies etc.
In these incidences I take the word of the long term experienced like PaulB and Bill because the issue is the health of my fish not the strength of the slime coat
That said Feeding properly is a big issue for unseasoned reefers IMO.

 

[sabbath]

From observation feeding only live sea food has increased the color and activity of my fish. Mortality rate is nil compared to when I started out
I don't know how you would prove that the composition of the slime coat has changed.. More antibodies etc.
In these incidences I take the word of the long term experienced like PaulB and Bill because the issue is the health of my fish not the strength of the slime coat
That said Feeding properly is a big issue for unseasoned reefers IMO.

How are you able to get and feed your fish "only live sea food"?

 

[Aquarist007]

Agree. I just lost half of my fish to Velvet trying to feed them good frozen food and the Tangs with lots of Nori. Looking to do strict QT from here on out.

I live in Minnesota so getting good live food from the ocean is a little difficult.

Sorry for your loss but I think it is a stretch blaming the death of your fish on feeding them healthy food.
I do agree with you about qting however if not just for observing and giving your fish time to get healthy

 

[Aquarist007]

How are you able to get and feed your fish "only live sea food"?

Sorry not live .. Just sea food . No flake pellets ect or dried.
IMO live has nothing to do with it . Plenty of sea food at the grocery store and in cans with the oil included . Also feed frozen whole shrimp mysis and silverside minnows
Today we had Turkey.. Fed that too... Lol just kidding

 

[Subsea]

Fresh seafood market

Fresh seafood market

How are you able to get and feed your fish "only live sea food"?

In todays modern economy, live clams, live oysters, and live lobster should be readily available for anyone seeking this out in any modern city in America.
Patrick