Go Big OR Go Home! Construction of a 1000 gallon System!!

[bstone]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6776482#post6776482 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jnarowe
You call that a mess??? I can still see the floor! :lol:

It looks great. How did the testing go? Did you have enough BH (flow) between the Titans to match the flow of the Sequences?? Are you kicking any water back into the sump from the pumps to equalize levels?

Good question.. I only had one skimmer running and the flow from sump one to sump 2 would not keep up. And that was with only one recirc pump on. Once I get the GEX-X pump back from ER then I can test it at full flow. At worst case I might have to add another 2" pipe from sump 1 to sump 2 to compensate for the extra flow. I already have one 2" pipe cpnnecting them plus the (2) skimmers, so I will just have to see. I didn' expect it to flopw perfect at first, I knew it would need adjusting!

 

[asnatlas]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6776511#post6776511 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bstone
How long did it take you to fill the tank with RO water ??
I had my R/O-DI running about 110 gallons a day, so about 10 days total!!

ROFL, that is what I was thinking... I have a 100gpd unit so when I start filling up my tank it will prob take close to 6 days of non stop filling just for my display

 

[bstone]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6776461#post6776461 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Julio
running pumps i n series won't give you more GPH especially if they are right next to each other. It would work if you are running them in high pressure situations such as having your one pump on one floor and the other on a seperate floor. In this case however is just a waste of energy.

True but not true... Having pumps in series will double the head pressure, which will increase your flow - but not past the actual flow rate of a single pump. Here is a pump curve to explain, plus a web site at sequence.

http://www.mdminc.com/Multiple_Pump_Curve.htm

 

[bstone]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6776542#post6776542 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by asnatlas
ROFL, that is what I was thinking... I have a 100gpd unit so when I start filling up my tank it will prob take close to 6 days of non stop filling just for my display

There are things you can do to increase the flow of your R/O.. Like mixing your hot and cold water together to about 80 - 90 F, that will add about 40 - 60% more flow. Cold water is much harder to push thought a R/O membrane. So, if you run a 100GPD R/O membrane on cold tap water you mifgt get 50 - 65 GPD.. But, before anyone goes out and does this make sure you adjust your comcentrate flow to atleast 4x the product flow. Also, refer to your manual with the R/O membrane to get the optimal temp and ratio between permiate and concentrate.

 

[asnatlas]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6776595#post6776595 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bstone
There are things you can do to increase the flow of your R/O.. Like mixing your hot and cold water together to about 80 - 90 F, that will add about 40 - 60% more flow. Cold water is much harder to push thought a R/O membrane. So, if you run a 100GPD R/O membrane on cold tap water you mifgt get 50 - 65 GPD..

I was going to get like 50ft of tubing and coil it in a bucket of water with a heater to heat up the inc'ing water so that it would increase the rate...

 

[Julio]

your head pressure will only double if you run them far apart from each other, but not next to one another, they are feeding of the same water source and i will guarantee you that if you take one the of the pumps off you will get the same flow if you have a flow meter on your system.

 

[bstone]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6776617#post6776617 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by asnatlas
I was going to get like 50ft of tubing and coil it in a bucket of water with a heater to heat up the inc'ing water so that it would increase the rate...

It would work, but you would loose BTU's (heat much faster that way. Also, the temp would not be steady. Just buy a 3 way and have hot/cold on one side and the other would go to your sediment filter. Just add a bypass valve after teh sedimant filter to test the temp to dial it inn!

 

[bstone]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6776635#post6776635 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Julio
your head pressure will only double if you run them far apart from each other, but not next to one another, they are feeding of the same water source and i will guarantee you that if you take one the of the pumps off you will get the same flow if you have a flow meter on your system.

I am sorry but not true. I ran the second pump and had to turn it off because my sump (at the time) would not handle the extra flow.

Also, if you are suggesting the each has its own water source or suction supply and then they come together on the discharge side then you will not double your head pressure, you will just extend it out farther before the pressure drops off. Look at the graph, it shows a single pump, parrell pump, and a series pump curve. That should explain it.

You are right about the distance though, they do need to be at least 24" apart from eachother in series.

 

[jnarowe]

What I am doing with my RO/DI is I have my RO holding sump heated to 80F and I run 200 feet of tap supply line coiled in the RO sump and then to the water makers. That warms the flow up and increases water production.

With both those pumps I would guess that you will run the outflow sump right down to the BH and create a cavitating whirlpool that will draw air into the system. I have a 2-sump system as well and what I did was install a "T" right after the pump with a BV and line going back into the outflow sump.

This gives me 2 distinct advantages in that I can level out the sumps and it also makes priming the pumps a quick flip of the valve. I also put a clear flip-style check valve right after the "T" so I could visually know immediately if the pump is primed and water is flowing. Look on my thread for pics if I didn't describe that well enough.

The double pumps seems like overkill to me, but not being there and following it exactly as you designed it, I really can't tell what the advantage is. I am running one 1000 series Sequence (4200) through my system and it seems ideal with about 1200g, but each system is different and since you are pushing sea swirls, you may need all that pressure. I am just returning water with 4-1" open ended returns and one 1" spray bar, so I don't need all that pressure. The room is really taking shape!

 

[bstone]

I just turned my pumps on again to varify. There is a definite flow difference between one pump and two pumps on, a major differnce! Also, my pumps also have a postivie pressure on them from the sump because the suction side of the first pump is below the water lilne of the last sump. The suction on the pump is 1-1/2", so I increased it to 2" so that it would not starve for water.

 

[jnarowe]

So with both pumps on you aren't draining the outflow sump? It's hard for me to imagine, based on my recent experience, that those two lines between the sumps could keep up with 2 pumps like that.

With mine 1 pump drained the outflow sump so low that occassionally it would draw air, but I am also using much smaller volume sumps, so that would make a difference too I think.

 

[bstone]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6776895#post6776895 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jnarowe
So with both pumps on you aren't draining the outflow sump? It's hard for me to imagine, based on my recent experience, that those two lines between the sumps could keep up with 2 pumps like that.

With mine 1 pump drained the outflow sump so low that occassionally it would draw air, but I am also using much smaller volume sumps, so that would make a difference too I think.

Now I understand your question. Good question, I have a pump pulling water from sump #2 going to the chiller outside and then discharging to sump #3. That gives me the balance that I need. The two 2" pipe between sump 2 and sump 3 are there to aid in evening out the flow.

The only problem I forsee is a possible flow restriction from sump 1 to sump 2. The two skimmers pull from sump one and discharge to sump 2. I also have one 2" pipe connecting them to aid in evening out the water level. I might need to add one more 2' pipe between sump 1 and 2. I can't test it at full flow for too long becuase one of the skimmers is haiving its pump repaired and I can't turn it on.

 

[AcroSteve]

I still can't figure you are getting more flow than running the two pumps in parallel. It seems like it would be less efficient they way you have it. You would need more than 22' of head to make out for the better. What head height do you figure the pumps are working with? My guess is about 12' max.

You really should add add another pipe between the sumps. You do not want to rely an the chiller pump(or any other pump) to keep it balanced. Think safety and redundancy.

You should have sufficient flow capacity for the water to gravity feed from the tank all the way to the return pump, with only the return pump(s) on. Otherwise, the chance for a flood is increased greatly.

 

[bstone]

All I can say is that there is a huge difference between flow when I use one pump compared to two pumps. Beleive me or not!! I really didn't start this thread to have people doubt what I say, I did it to share my new construction of this huge system. Now, I really don't mind constructive crisitism, I even like it! But, if you doubt my flow then call the owner of Sequence and he will explain. He helped me design the flow system on this tank. I even met him in person at PA a few weeks ago.. Just my 2 cents..

 

[Julio]

If you really want to increase head pressure you are better off running hte pumps of a Y connection and shooting up 1 line, your head pressure will increase dramatically.

 

[TheCoralReef731]

Nice setup. Do you know what the difference between parallel and series is?

 

[tang_man_montreal]

Taken directly from MDM's website...

http://www.mdminc.com/Multiple_Pump_Curve.htm

This layout is good for a a series of pumps. This should be setup with a single intake line feeding one pump. The discharge of the first pump should then be plumbed into the intake on the next pump in series. The last pump's discharge should be routed to the system. A discharge valve for the last pump is recommended to allow balancing of pressure as needed.

 

[ReefWaters]

looking at the graph, bstone is VERY correct.

Lets just assume he had 20' of head pressure. That does not mean the outlets have to be 20' above the pumps. Every 90 degree elbow, every foot of PVC pipe, every Sea Swirl, etc, etc, increases head pressure.

The graph clearly shows that....

1 pump @ 20' has approximately 2800 gph of flow.
2 pumps in series @ 20' have approximately 5000 gph of flow.

I admit, Im having a hard time understanding it myself and I took thermodynamics in college but the Sequence pumps were designed by REAL engineers (not me) and the proof is in the pudding when he turns both pumps on.


bstone, my only suggestion is that you make sure the sumps are plumbed to handle the flow without the skimmers on. That way, if you ever have to turn off the skimmers for any reason (or they break), you wont have to turn off the return pumps or worry about an overflow or cavitation problem.

Good luck and its looking great!

 

[bstone]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6778214#post6778214 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReefWaters
looking at the graph, bstone is VERY correct.

Lets just assume he had 20' of head pressure. That does not mean the outlets have to be 20' above the pumps. Every 90 degree elbow, every foot of PVC pipe, every Sea Swirl, etc, etc, increases head pressure.

The graph clearly shows that....

1 pump @ 20' has approximately 2800 gph of flow.
2 pumps in series @ 20' have approximately 5000 gph of flow.

I admit, Im having a hard time understanding it myself and I took thermodynamics in college but the Sequence pumps were designed by REAL engineers (not me) and the proof is in the pudding when he turns both pumps on.


bstone, my only suggestion is that you make sure the sumps are plumbed to handle the flow without the skimmers on. That way, if you ever have to turn off the skimmers for any reason (or they break), you wont have to turn off the return pumps or worry about an overflow or cavitation problem.

Good luck and its looking great!

That is for pumps in parrellel. Mine are in series. Anyway..
Look at it this way, if my head preasure was greater then 25 then I might get a little bite of flow with one pump on, but when I turn on the second pump my flow jumps to 4200 GPH.

 

[polywise]

bstone,
I run two dolphin series pumps on 18' of head. They are run in parralel, for the first 8 feet up to the ceiling, and then both hook up to 3" piping for the rest of the 75' trip to the tank.

imo / experience: you are just "super charging" your second pump-- giving it more available water than it could actually suck from your sump. You are not dealing with a head preasure situation and do not need that kind of configuration.

I would suggest that you realy think about your set up. You will be amazed at the actual volume outcome.