Hawaiian Collection Legislation

In my opinion, the law is written atrociously. Are we really using common names in legal legislation now?
A lot of Hawai'ian fishing regulations not only use common names, but Hawai'ian common names, which to me seem even less specific. :rolleyes:

The OP also mentions this bill limiting transshipment of ornamentals, but I don't see that anywhere in the bill. Am I missing something?
I can't find it either. Typically with these types of bills people read more into them than what's actually there and start telling everyone the sky is falling. Back when California was trying to ban Caulerpa people were trying to drum up support by saying that it would shut down the whole hobby because most LR is shipped through Cali and since it could potentially have Caulerpa on it it would be illegal to import. Well guess what? The Caulerpa ban passed, the hobby didn't shut down, and more LR than ever is being imported through Cali.
 
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I repeat .... none of the know-it-alls has answered this question .... everyone wants to sit on a high horse, but no one wants to address the tough question.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11716868#post11716868 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by eskymick

And here's something else to consider ....

How many "ornamental" fish are destroyed by commercial fishing (for food) compared to the numbers netted (alive) by collectors for the hobby industry? Shouldn't commercial fishing enterprises also be subjected to the same bag limit of 5 (or 20 total) per day ?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11716868#post11716868 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by eskymick
How many "ornamental" fish are destroyed by commercial fishing (for food) compared to the numbers netted (alive) by collectors for the hobby industry? Shouldn't commercial fishing enterprises also be subjected to the same bag limit of 5 (or 20 total) per day ?
I don't know for sure, but I'm going to guess that they don't catch too many. As far as I know, trawling with nets isn't allowed, nor would I imagine they catch the fish they want, on the reefs.
 
It would appear that there are a number of things that need to be cleared up regarding this thread. First, the collectors, wholesale companies and hobbyists in Hawaii are, for the most part, not against conservation or regulation of the industry. Everyone's livelyhood depends on the continuation of the resource. What we are against is having laws created which are backed by private interest groups who did not consult scientific data for their claims. The Department of Land and Natural Resources was not consulted prior to this bill and it is their responsibility to manage Hawaii's aquatic resources. This bill is not an attempt by Hawaii's government to conserve its resources, it is a ploy to garner free publicity for its author. If you would like to hear more of his rant, please do follow the previous link to http://www.seashepherd.org/editoria..._070814_1p.html 90% of his essay is purely opinion and not supported by fact. If you would like me to break it down in a future post I would be more than happy to do so.
The DLNR/DAR has already set aside a large percentage of the Kona coastline as no-take areas. This has had scientifically proven results. What the collectors are catching is the resulting spill-over from the conservation districts. As long as there are large no catch zones, fish species will always be spawning. As those who have taken the time to read this bill can attest to, its wording is vague and arbitrary.

"(b) No person shall catch, net, or trap (THIS CAN BE INTERPRETED TO INCLUDE SPEARFISHERMEN AND LINE FISHERMEN ALSO)certain ornamental fish in a no-take category, including but not limited to(BASICALLY ALL THE FISH IN HAWAII CAN BE ADDED AT WHIM), all puffer fish, all box fish, potter's angel, cleaner wrasse, all coralvores, and all eels.

(c) For purposes of this section, the term "ornamental fish" means salt water fish, usually found in or around reefs, that are commonly kept in aquariums (WHO IS TO DICTATE WHAT DEFINES A COMMONLY KEPT FISH?).

The reality of this industry is that no collectors in Hawaii can survive with a 20 fish per day bag limit. If yellow tangs, potter angels and other popular Hawaiian fish are restricted or banned, the only result will be the overharvesting of the few indiginous Hawaiian specimens that are outside the ban. If we were to only target potters wrasse and flame wrasse day in and day out - they would cease to appear on our reefs.
As for the cessation of Christmas Island and Marshall Island fish (flame angels, lemon peels, mystery wrasse, rhomboids, black tangs, goldflake angels,etc.) Hawaii has historically been a hub for their transshipment. When attempting to ship the fish from those South Pacific locations directly to the West Coast there were staggering losses due to the long transit time. The wholesale companies in Hawaii, however, do not make enough of a profit margin on the transhipped fish to continue doing so without the Hawaii specimens to add to the mix. If this bill passes, there will be no more fish from Hawaii (other than ultra rare items like crosshatch triggers and banded angels - unless those too are banned.) And there will be no more South Pacific fish. I have been in this industry for the past 15+ years and this is the reality of it.
On a closing note, the author of this bill Robert Wintner has this to say about all you who have fish tanks, "I think of the internet pedophiles lured into the kitchen where the MSNBC cameras are rolling so the world can see them-they hang their heads, knowing their appetite is so wicked. Aquarium keeping is similarly shameful, but the perpetrators must be treated with understanding and help toward rehabilitation."
If you feel as though this hobby causes you need rehabilitation for your shameful and wicked appetite, then by all means - please support Mr. Wintner.
 
I couldn't have said it better freedive43, it is not reasonable restrictions that Hawaiian aquarium keepers like myself oppose - for example a bill that restricts commercial collection of fish that CANNOT be kept alive like the Hawaiian cleaner Wrasse and Ornate and Oval butterflies would likely be WELCOMED by most reasonable aquarists.
Instead it is this nonsensical ban on easily maintained species like puffers and eels, and moderately difficult, but certainly not impossible species like Potter's angels that makes no sense.
Also limiting collection of non-reproductive juvenile yellow tangs in the 2-3 inch size range makes no sense either - most of those fish probably wouldn't have survived to adulthood anyway, as fish mortality is highest among younger fish and decreases as the fish get older,larger and "wiser" - a limit on catching larger 5-8 inch reproductive specimens would make much more sense ecologically, and would impact commercial fisheries less.
Also - as I mentioned on the other thread which has been locked the recent creation of the Northwest Hawaiian Islands National Monument has placed off limits to fishing of any kind all the Hawaiian islands west of Niihau. This newly created sanctuary will act as a safety net virtually assurring continued survival of any species currently targeted for collection. Regional shortages of fish may occur if a species is overcollected, however they will be SHORT and TEMPORARY as the off limits Northwest Hawaiian Islands houses a HUGE unmolested breeding population that will "reseed" the main islands with each successive spawning season.
Again I am not a commercial collector, just a Hawaiian hobbyist who enjoys catching his own specimens, and I believe I am representative of the majority of hobbyists who would support WELL REASONED legislation - not this poorly worded bill, I mean REALLY what will be defined as corralivore - only obligate coral feeders like the Ornate butterfly (a good thing) or Teardrop butterflies which SOMETIMES feed on coral (ridiculous, as this species adapts readilly to captivity).
Please, on behalf of Hawaiian aquarium keepers, OPPOSE this bad bill, and instead, support ones that are based on hard science, not the interests of the Dive/Tour companies.
Aloha and Mahalo from your brothers and sisters who keep aquariums in Hawaii !
 
I think the bans a good thing. Hopefully other places will start this too. Far too many fish are over collected,die in shipping or if they do survive get sold for a small price to some clueless careless person to have a life of misery in a tiny,polluted tank.

bump the price up. and get working on aqua culture. the reefs and animals that live on them are far more important than the hawaian economy. maybe people will work harder on aqua culture now.
 
The bottom line is this- the bill proposed is written HORRIBLY to become a law. It essentially opens to door for laws and legislatures to change on a whim with no notification. It seems as if a child wrote this. As stated above, there is no reasons that conservation and regulations cant be put into place, it is just that this bill is the worst way to do it.

Fischers- I still disagree with your assessment that the preserved Northern areas in Hawaii will ensure the species survival. That is the definition of putting all the eggs into one basket. Unrestricted collection in any area will decimate the population, and it will not "reseed" from a protected area as you state. You will only see transient waif periodically, but, over time, the habitat will become unuable by the specias, and they will not habitate there anymore, particularly if they are collected without limit.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11720980#post11720980 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by freedive43
And there will be no more South Pacific fish. I have been in this industry for the past 15+ years and this is the reality of it.
So you are stating that anything from the South Pacific [EVERY island] ... every single fish is trans-shipped through Hawaii?

Or is it just a few areas of the South Pacific that ship through HI?
[Seems like Tonga, Fiji, others don't ...]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11720980#post11720980 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by freedive43
The wholesale companies in Hawaii, however, do not make enough of a profit margin on the transhipped fish to continue doing so without the Hawaii specimens to add to the mix.
So, the whole of South Pacific's fish are not enough $$ to ship on their own?

Is it then a huge impact on the hobby, if the transshippers are not even making a dime on it? Can't be that large a volume, if it cannot be made to pay for itself.

You can't have it both ways ... either this is the sole source from the S. Pacific [as you stated] or there are other channels and perhaps this is being overblown on it's impact.



Personally, I'd be a LOT more concerned if it didn't seem like we're being told the sky is falling.

IMO the overstatements and attempts towards advocacy by non-state-residents both make me seriously question those who are making a big deal about it here.

I don't live in Hawaii, so why should I be advocating allowing greater livestock harvest?

And shouldn't those advocating continued harvesting be demonstrating clear studies that make it clear there is zero impact on populations from collection?

You can say that the other side does not have science behind them .... but if that's so, you should have some clear science showing that the opposite is true. As far as I've seen, there is little to no science being brought into this discussion ... which certainly raises a lot of questions about both perspectives. If it's a clear case, then the evidence should be easy to get that collection has zero negatives on populations.

That's my take, feel free to politely disagree [ie follow the UA] :)
 
Here's my problem with is. As many can see with my user name, I have an interest in Greyhounds. I have lived with retired racers for almost a quarter century and in the last several years I have been a regular contributor to the Greyhound Review magazine. Since 2003, they have published nearly 30,000 words from me. I also traveled the country visiting breeding farms and racetracks to write a book about the sport. The book is currently being published.

That said, I have watched as different states outlaw Greyhound racing, why? Because animal rights' activists have been able to convince lazy politicials into believing the dogs are abused, mistreated, and locked up 22 hours a day in small cages. When in fact, as I have seen for myself, the dogs are happy, healthy, and most importantly -- they act as though every person they meet is their best friend. Anybody who lives with dogs knows a dog will tell you how he's been treated by the way he acts and responds to you. So, I have seen poor law in action.

Politicals who have passed anti-racing laws could care less about any of that. They got an easy law passed and, along with animal rights' activists who often maintain a radical non-mainstream ideology, go home patting themselves on the back. I see this Hawaiian bill as the same thing. It effectively castrates a mosquito with a sledgehammer all in the name of a few peoples' personal agendas. Irregardless if you believe in stronger conservation or not, this is simply bad medicine and in this form should be rejected because we need to be smart about this kind of thing.

If a new bill came to the table that was there to actually improve conservation if it was needed and not to serve personal agenda I'll certainly have a more open mind about it. Like I wrote before, I see this as poor law and I don't like it.

-Ryan
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11723694#post11723694 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HippieSmell
What exactly is inaccurate?

Here are a few that jumped out at me;

“ciguatera toxin is present in most reef organisms”

“The same yellow tang will die in a tank at 2 years max-if the tank is perfectly maintained, and if the tang or other fish came from Hawaii.”

“All reef fish from Indonesia, the Philippines, Andaman Sea, South China Sea et al now have compromised liver function from residual cyanide used over the years in fish collection.”

“Any fish coming from those waters will die in a few months to 2 years in captivity.”

“NO LOCAL or State government currently regulates species export outside the CITES list or the Endangered Species act. All species are fair game for unlimited trade if they don't appear on those lists-exotic reptiles or primates from Indonesia or a casual container of parrots from South America. Besides Endangered Species & CITES, local, regional or state constraints on wildlife export are virtually non-existent around the world.”

“Aquarium hobbyists in the U.S. are mostly male, 30-50. We are told that most are indifferent to reef death or alternatives.”

“They want wild-caught fish, not captive bred, knowing that the wild fish will only survive 6-24 months.”

“yet captive-bred clownfish don't swim as excitedly as wild-caught”


This is my favorite part of the thing:
“We must 1) stay on point, avoiding rhetoric or emotion”
Clearly this very article was written with no rhetoric or emotion.
 
I'm a supporter of the bill but it has a lot of loopholes and needs some cleanup/less vagueness.

I do have to agree with;

"yet captive-bred clownfish don't swim as excitedly as wild-caught”"

I love supporting captive bred... but 90%+ that we get at my lfs and the one I worked at a few years ago swim retarded and have mouth/fin growth issues. I believe they're all ORA. This isn't an excuse to buy wild caught - but imo the "big boy" captive bred companies need to fix these issues so the public will demand their product more than they already do (or don't do in some cases)

edit: also, captive bred ones often get sick and die if introduced into a system with wild caught ones (I forget the name of the internal parasite that clowns are prone to). This causes some customers to shy away... maybe breeders can intoduce clowns to "some" diseases so they're not sterile and put into a system full of all sorts of bugs. Ever see "War of the Worlds"? Or older people that never got chicken pox get it?
 
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Most people who support the Bill have never been diving in Hawaii (i'm generalizing as im sure some have) Potters angels are abundant. 70 feet down on a reef slope there are hundreds (and that is just one spot) Flame angels in Hawaii are more rare then bandit angels...

Also, those who support should just shut down their aquariums now. How can you support a Bill that shuts down Hawaii (one of the few places who actually collect fish correctly without the use of drugs or explosives) when you currently keep an aquarium - when i bet you have a Hawaiian/marshalls/xmas fish in it (or inverts). the repercussions of this bill will effect EVERYONE in the industry. Your favorite LFS will go out of business because BOTH the aquarium staples (yellows and flames) will slowly cease to exist in the industry and become a 400-500 dollar fish retail. Fiji, Vanuatu, Solomans, etc dont supply nearly enough flame angels as Christmas island alone.

I hope some type of regulation is in place (i dont like how many yellows are collected in Kona) but definitely not this bill!
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11725035#post11725035 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zemuron114
Most people who support the Bill have never been diving in Hawaii (i'm generalizing as im sure some have) Potters angels are abundant. 70 feet down on a reef slope there are hundreds (and that is just one spot) Flame angels in Hawaii are more rare then bandit angels...

Also, those who support should just shut down their aquariums now. How can you support a Bill that shuts down Hawaii (one of the few places who actually collect fish correctly without the use of drugs or explosives) when you currently keep an aquarium - when i bet you have a Hawaiian/marshalls/xmas fish in it (or inverts). the repercussions of this bill will effect EVERYONE in the industry. Your favorite LFS will go out of business because BOTH the aquarium staples (yellows and flames) will slowly cease to exist in the industry and become a 400-500 dollar fish retail. Fiji, Vanuatu, Solomans, etc dont supply nearly enough flame angels as Christmas island alone.

I hope some type of regulation is in place (i dont like how many yellows are collected in Kona) but definitely not this bill!
Did you go diving there 20 years ago? I hear it's much different now. And LFS won't go out of business because there aren't as many yellow tangs, lmao.
 
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