Hawaiian Collection Legislation

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11724826#post11724826 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrissreef
I'm a supporter of the bill
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11742929#post11742929 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrissreef
I do not support the bill
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Good to see you come to your senses.
 
=) yea, I didn't elaborate well in that post =( ... I've always agreed with what the bill represents (regulation/limitations of some sort)... if you look back a few pages in this "Responsible Reefkeeping" forum you'll see I've suggested the same thing a few times.

and thanks for posting - I love when people call me out or prove me wrong on things... that's how we learn and stuff =)

(ps - why can't I go back more than 1 page?? I wanted to post a link of where I suggested this b4? the certification is similar but not what I'm looking for)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11743196#post11743196 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrissreef
RGBMatt - have any links to that data that's specific to HI?
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Here you go:

http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=116948&start=40

Look for the post on page 3 of this thread by "Dr. Bill", which gives stats on yellow tang abundance, numbers collected, and market value from 1999 to 2007. The poster is Dr. Bill Walsh, author of the articles you just quoted in your last post and an opponent of bill 3225.

Sublime250: If your aquarium club truly believe in protecting the reef, they should not support this bill. Your webmaster just got an e-mail - please ensure that he/she takes the time to read it.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11744956#post11744956 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sublime250
The reef takes precedence over my fish tank any day-

This is appropriate legislation to protect the reef in my opinion.


This is a big discussion in our club DFWMAS.

Here is our newsletter with an article addressing this legislation:

http://www.dfwmas.org/NewsLetter/dfwmas_newsletter2008_01.pdf
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:eek1: The newsletter provides the link to the Hawaiin government report stating that fish populations are on the rise do to the FRAs as if it's proof of why they should support Snorkel Bob's bill. Now I don't get it!

sublime- The way your newsletter is written it seems to imply that Eric Borneman and Ron Shimek are in support of this bill. Is that the case? :confused:
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11744889#post11744889 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrissreef
=) yea, I didn't elaborate well in that post =( ... I've always agreed with what the bill represents (regulation/limitations of some sort)... if you look back a few pages in this "Responsible Reefkeeping" forum you'll see I've suggested the same thing a few times.

and thanks for posting - I love when people call me out or prove me wrong on things... that's how we learn and stuff =)

(ps - why can't I go back more than 1 page?? I wanted to post a link of where I suggested this b4? the certification is similar but not what I'm looking for)
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I'm impressed with your post! I had you figured for someone that was not interested in learning the facts. I apologize for that. Industry reform IS needed, I think all ethical people involved in the hobby agree with that. But bad legislation isn't going to fix anything and it isn't a start, it's just bad legislation. Bad legislation at best will be ineffective, at worst it will drain funds/resources that could have used for effective policies and provide a false sense sense of security.
 
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RGBMatt - if you want to send what you sent our webmaster to me, i can fwd to the club president. I'd think the webmaster would fwd it but I don't know him. I'm sure this topic will come up at the next meeting... I'm not sure if there's any communication with other clubs.

this is one big touchy subject - data going all over the place imo... if any regulation occures, it needs to take into consideration that some data might be bad and how this could impact collectors. I really believe there's a good solution out there. I think the simplest is "freezing" the current collection volume (rotate islands every year or collection is only for certain parts of the year etc. etc.). With the current collection - if the hobby expands then prices can be driven up =) but since it's frozen people can't really complain too much that they'll lose their life. I believe even reducing qty's is a good idea to drive up prices (y tangs are some of the cheapest fish currently and f angels - people will pay for those) - but collectors don't seem too interested in reducing qty's.

RichardS - 100% agree =) I think we need it... but it needs to be reworked (or industry/diver process changes occure to ensure it's renewable)

edit: I wonder if this thread or another would be good to maybe start an alternative bill?
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11745410#post11745410 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichardS
I'm impressed with your post! I had you figured for someone that was not interested in learning the facts. I apologize for that. Industry reform IS needed, I think all ethical people involved in the hobby agree with that. But bad legislation isn't going to fix anything and it isn't a start, it's just bad legislation. Bad legislation at best will be ineffective, at worst it will drain funds/resources that could have used for effective policies and provide a false sense sense of security.
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That person, who on the forum is named 'Dr. Bill' joined the forum reefs.org feb 1,2008 and has one post on Feb,1 2008. I think the validity of that post is in question. No scientific studies have been referenced either.

I don't think there is an official stance within the club (DFWMAS), just a few opinions from outspoken members =-)
 
Chrissreef: PM me with your e-mail address and I'll send it over.

Sublime: Dr. Bill is in charge of the fisheries monitoring program in West Hawai, and the author of this paper:

http://hawaii.gov/dlnr/dar/pubs/ar_hrs188F5.pdf

As a scientist rather than an aquarium hobbyist, you can't really expect him to have been an active forum participant.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11741555#post11741555 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zemuron114
If the collectors are to blame for the reefs then why are the corals not as abundant? Since taking coral is highly illegal, it cannot be blamed on collectors.
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Hawaiian waters are actually rather chilly for good coral growth, hence the lack of corals.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11747084#post11747084 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sublime250
That person, who on the forum is named 'Dr. Bill' joined the forum reefs.org feb 1,2008 and has one post on Feb,1 2008. I think the validity of that post is in question. No scientific studies have been referenced either.

I don't think there is an official stance within the club (DFWMAS), just a few opinions from outspoken members =-)
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Your holding post count against the scientist? :rolleyes: So if I where to post that it would be more sound because I have a few thousand posts on each site? Sorry that makes no sense. He joined just for the conversation at hand ;)
 
I was curious if this was in fact. Dr. Bill the scientist- not some random person. Since he makes no reference in his post or profile about his identity other than "Dr. Bill"
and would like to have seen his reference which was provided here by rgbmatt- Thanks!
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11723510#post11723510 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JMaxwell
Snorkel Bob is a Scuba Shop in Kailua Kona. I don't think I'll go there anymore.
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There is no need to bash of Snorkel Bob's here, I've been there within the past year and they were extremely helpful and intelligent.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11757326#post11757326 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Savfish
There is no need to bash of Snorkel Bob's here, I've been there within the past year and they were extremely helpful and intelligent.
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Did you miss the part where he called you a pedophile? That is not helpful or intelligent.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11720980#post11720980 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by freedive43
It would appear that there are a number of things that need to be cleared up regarding this thread. First, the collectors, wholesale companies and hobbyists in Hawaii are, for the most part, not against conservation or regulation of the industry. Everyone's livelyhood depends on the continuation of the resource. What we are against is having laws created which are backed by private interest groups who did not consult scientific data for their claims. The Department of Land and Natural Resources was not consulted prior to this bill and it is their responsibility to manage Hawaii's aquatic resources. This bill is not an attempt by Hawaii's government to conserve its resources, it is a ploy to garner free publicity for its author. If you would like to hear more of his rant, please do follow the previous link to http://www.seashepherd.org/editoria..._070814_1p.html 90% of his essay is purely opinion and not supported by fact. If you would like me to break it down in a future post I would be more than happy to do so.
The DLNR/DAR has already set aside a large percentage of the Kona coastline as no-take areas. This has had scientifically proven results. What the collectors are catching is the resulting spill-over from the conservation districts. As long as there are large no catch zones, fish species will always be spawning. As those who have taken the time to read this bill can attest to, its wording is vague and arbitrary.

"(b) No person shall catch, net, or trap (THIS CAN BE INTERPRETED TO INCLUDE SPEARFISHERMEN AND LINE FISHERMEN ALSO)certain ornamental fish in a no-take category, including but not limited to(BASICALLY ALL THE FISH IN HAWAII CAN BE ADDED AT WHIM), all puffer fish, all box fish, potter's angel, cleaner wrasse, all coralvores, and all eels.

(c) For purposes of this section, the term "ornamental fish" means salt water fish, usually found in or around reefs, that are commonly kept in aquariums (WHO IS TO DICTATE WHAT DEFINES A COMMONLY KEPT FISH?).

The reality of this industry is that no collectors in Hawaii can survive with a 20 fish per day bag limit. If yellow tangs, potter angels and other popular Hawaiian fish are restricted or banned, the only result will be the overharvesting of the few indiginous Hawaiian specimens that are outside the ban. If we were to only target potters wrasse and flame wrasse day in and day out - they would cease to appear on our reefs.
As for the cessation of Christmas Island and Marshall Island fish (flame angels, lemon peels, mystery wrasse, rhomboids, black tangs, goldflake angels,etc.) Hawaii has historically been a hub for their transshipment. When attempting to ship the fish from those South Pacific locations directly to the West Coast there were staggering losses due to the long transit time. The wholesale companies in Hawaii, however, do not make enough of a profit margin on the transhipped fish to continue doing so without the Hawaii specimens to add to the mix. If this bill passes, there will be no more fish from Hawaii (other than ultra rare items like crosshatch triggers and banded angels - unless those too are banned.) And there will be no more South Pacific fish. I have been in this industry for the past 15+ years and this is the reality of it.
On a closing note, the author of this bill Robert Wintner has this to say about all you who have fish tanks, "I think of the internet pedophiles lured into the kitchen where the MSNBC cameras are rolling so the world can see them-they hang their heads, knowing their appetite is so wicked. Aquarium keeping is similarly shameful, but the perpetrators must be treated with understanding and help toward rehabilitation."
If you feel as though this hobby causes you need rehabilitation for your shameful and wicked appetite, then by all means - please support Mr. Wintner.
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People have to get new jobs all the time when the industry they are in changes...suck it up.
If we lose our aquariums because fish are dying out...suck it up.
Only a certain individual would put their aquarium above the good of nature anyways. Why is it anyone feels they can do what they will with regards to nature. Yes i have all captive bred fish/corals yes i know for a fact (as well as i can possibly look into it) no i have not always, but i do now. Yes i seeded mostly base rock with a little liverock. Every little bit helps. If it cannot be backed up by some science then yes i also agree it needs to be looked at more thoroughly. i find it hard to believe anything like that will happen (no not just an american phenomenon, but on the hole a lot more prevalent down there) all "experts" are bought by the people making claims, from your news reports to your science journals all you need to have an expert back up your claim is some money to make him do it. Happens all over the world, yes but with regards to environmental imapct, the wallets get impacted the environment gets shafted. oh well such is the way of things nowadays...i guess i just feel its about time we suffered a little so other things don't, but with a vice pres like you had down there who said you had the right to drive gas guzzling suvs...i doubt it will change.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11742884#post11742884 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RGBMatt
All right guys, you need to calm down! There has been enough emotional bickering and name-calling already. Let's get some facts straight here.

I work as an aquarium collector here on Oahu. I also have a degree in marine biology from the University of Hawaii, am an active scientific diver, and have worked on a number of research projects involving coral reef conservation, fisheries monitoring, and marine exploration. This bill has upset many of us not only in the aquarium trade, but in the scientific community.

The first thing you need to understand about this bill is that it is purely a special interest legislation, written by Robert Wintner (aka Snorkel Bob), the owner of a large snorkel tour company. For years now, Mr. Wintner has promoted himself as an environmental activist in order to draw attention to his business, and used aquarium collectors as scapegoats. Most of his claims against us are completely false - he says that we collect ten million fish annually (not possible), that we have exterminated flame angels in Hawaii (not true - they were always rare here), and that we have driven hermit crabs to extinction (absolutely not true!). Perhaps some of you missed it, but in a link posted earlier in this thread he compares aquarium hobbyists (you) to pedophiles.

Which brings us to the real question: Are Hawaii's reefs being overfished, and are the restrictions proposed by this bill an effective way to regulate the industry? Simple hearsay from people saying "wow this reef looked nicer 20 years ago" doesn't really cut it.

This very question was posed, under similar circumstances, in the late 1990s when environmentalists and dive tour operators became concerned about the fishery and attempted to ban fish collecting along the Kona coast of the big island. The ensuing dispute ended with the creation of preserves that set aside 35% of the coastline as no-fishing areas and set up a monitoring program to assess fish stocks. The Hawaii Division of Land & Natural Resources has ten years of very good research which show that fish stocks have increased significantly overall and are holding steady in areas open to collection (this is from current data as of 2007).

By contrast, Snorkel Bob knows absolutely nothing about the aquarium fishery. His bill ignores a decade of painstaking work on the part of fish collectors, scientists, and environmentalists to conserve Hawaii's fish. It is clearly intended to destroy our industry (and your hobby) rather than protect it, and has absolutely no scientific basis. I and most other aquarium collectors would welcome meaningful regulations to protect the resources upon which we base our livelihood. However, it needs to come from people who know what they're doing rather than biased individuals with personal agendas.

When looking at the provisions in this bill, it is clear that they are fundamentally flawed and will do more harm than good. An indiscriminate bag limit makes no sense - for some of the species we target, 20 fish per day is excessive, while others can be collected in much greater numbers without any harm. A regulation of this nature would force us to target only the rare and valuable species, most of which could not handle the pressure. In any case, it would not be possible for us to earn a living with such a small quota.

The "banned species" list is also complete nonsense. I do not support the collection of cleaner wrasse and corallivorous butterflies. But, potter's angels, puffers, and eels are all very good aquarium fish, and are abundant in Hawaii - there should be no need to regulate fish such as these.

Fortunately for us, the fact that this bill is completely baseless means that it is almost certain to fail. I have been in contact with DLNR scientists responsible for overseeing the Kona fishery; they are just as upset as we are and are prepared to do as much as possible to stop this bill from going forward. However, Snorkel Bob is certain to attract ample support from well intentioned but poorly informed people, and we can use all the help we can get.

Frankly, I am shocked that so many of you are instantly willing to support such an inane bill. You really need to think and educate yourselves about the issues before you support (or condemn) laws such as these - uninformed citizens are the reason why disfunctional people like Ferdinand Marcos or Robert Mugabe are able attain power.
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There, if you are a marine biologist it is nice to have a real experts view. albeit tempered with the fact you are a collector :) I did post a bit of a rant...hopefully didn't come off as ahem..well...against american interests. Is there some form of scientific data gathering going on in Hawaii? How DO you know if fish are endangered? Is it enough that reefs are okay or should they be thriving? I'm not attacking just asking. Do the majority of marine biologists feel the way you do or is there an opposong side? What is the stance of the bg aquarium iin Hawaii (if you know). I'm just interesting in twhat the scientists have to say as well. cheers mate
 
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What that report is telling me is that stocks of Yellow Tangs increased 49% and Chevron Tangs 141% in areas protected against collection!! Doesn't this indicate that collecting puts a large stress on the population in unprotected areas?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11762160#post11762160 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by spike78
What that report is telling me is that stocks of Yellow Tangs increased 49% and Chevron Tangs 141% in areas protected against collection!! Doesn't this indicate that collecting puts a large stress on the population in unprotected areas?
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Take another look at that report. The FRA's are doing exactly what they are supposed to do. Yellow tangs are increasing in numbers in the FRA's but also in the areas where collection is permitted.
 
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