Hawaiian Collection Legislation

[cortez marine]

Breeding angelfishes.... to sell a few of is going to replace just how much of the wild catch?
Whats wrong with the wild catch?
If habitat is spared and not broken with crowbars, the wild populations continue beautifully and a local fishery dept. will survey stocks and establish a TAC Total Allowable catch quota, its a great way to supply a few fish for the trade and let fisherfolk make a living.
Steve

 

[cortez marine]

decimating carpet anemones to house Nemos

decimating carpet anemones to house Nemos

You don't get it at all.
Tank raised clowns are produced in large volume.
This has increased demand for wild anemones to keep with them.
Taking slow growing wild carpet anemones to go with volumes of domestic clownfishes subtracts wild clownfish generations....has decimated wild clownfish populations.
Steve

 

[cortez marine]

nonsense

nonsense

"there is a lot more fish besides clownfish that have been bred that many people aren't even aware of it. So to say it is a failure is stupid, since it most definitely isn't. "

The huge mass of all tank raised fishes are a single species, little Nemo.
All the rest combined pale by comparison.
THE CONSERVATION DIVIDEND HAS NOT BEEN NOTICED AT ALL.
The collection of the same species in the wild has slowed down not at all.
If interruptus are mostly shunted to HK its on account of better relationships among dealers...something that a good businessman could remedy .
However...theres nothing wrong with the art of breeding and raising some rare fish...great !

Tank raised fish as a rule though are not even remotely a substitute for wildcaught fishes except in the extreme case of the interruptus....and the abundant... but isolated resplendens.

It has generally and universally failed to fill much of a niche in the trade except in the Petco whiteslime clownfish department. To call that a success is nonsense.

Steve

 

[billsreef]

Re: nonsense

Re: nonsense

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11987759#post11987759 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cortez marine
The huge mass of all tank raised fishes are a single species, little Nemo.

That's because that is what sells the most and therefore makes the most money

BTW Wild caught clowns have an extremely high rate of mortality due to disease issues that aquacultured do not. With wild caught ocellaris I can expect a 80-90% mortality rate within a week of import, unless going to great lengths to medicate them. With Aquacultured I can expect a 90-100% survival rate until the batch sells, without any extra time or expense to treat them. Right there I would call that success for aquaculture. From the retailers perspective, if I have a choice between aquacultured clowns and the average wild caught, the aquacultured is the only logical choice. However, the aquaculture vs. wild caught debate is sidetracking the issue of fisheries legislation that this thread is about. So if anyone wants to continue the debate, how about starting a new thread for it. It's a worthy debate in it's own right

 

[cortez marine]

New thread then...
and you completely missed my point about the aquaculture trade increasing the extraction of slow-growng, non sustainable wildcaught carpet anemones which is the real conservation issue vis a vis clownfishes....not the DOA rate from crowded, mis-handled clownfish from the wild.
Steve

 

[Steven Pro]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11990842#post11990842 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cortez marine
you completely missed my point about the aquaculture trade increasing the extraction of slow-growng, non sustainable wildcaught carpet anemones which is the real conservation issue vis a vis clownfishes

Not to mention bubble tip and sebae anenomes also.

 

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11990842#post11990842 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cortez marine
New thread then...
and you completely missed my point about the aquaculture trade increasing the extraction of slow-growng, non sustainable wildcaught carpet anemones which is the real conservation issue vis a vis clownfishes....not the DOA rate from crowded, mis-handled clownfish from the wild.
Steve

That's yet another subject that's worth discussion in a thread of it's own

 

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11987500#post11987500 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zemuron114
without Frank from RTC there would be no small interruptus in the states (all stay in Japan or go to hong kong)

Sorry your wrong. While you in HI may not see any Interruptus, us mainlanders have and do on a regualr basis. Didn't see any Clarions last year, but I did see 10+ interruptus from Japan.

 

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11990842#post11990842 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cortez marine
New thread then...
and you completely missed my point about the aquaculture trade increasing the extraction of slow-growng, non sustainable wildcaught carpet anemones which is the real conservation issue vis a vis clownfishes....not the DOA rate from crowded, mis-handled clownfish from the wild.
Steve

Only old farts like yourself belive clowns need anemone as a host Steve :lol:

 

[GreshamH]

Re: nonsense

Re: nonsense

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11987759#post11987759 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cortez marine
"there is a lot more fish besides clownfish that have been bred that many people aren't even aware of it. So to say it is a failure is stupid, since it most definitely isn't. "

The huge mass of all tank raised fishes are a single species, little Nemo.
All the rest combined pale by comparison.
THE CONSERVATION DIVIDEND HAS NOT BEEN NOTICED AT ALL.
The collection of the same species in the wild has slowed down not at all.
If interruptus are mostly shunted to HK its on account of better relationships among dealers...something that a good businessman could remedy .
However...theres nothing wrong with the art of breeding and raising some rare fish...great !

Tank raised fish as a rule though are not even remotely a substitute for wildcaught fishes except in the extreme case of the interruptus....and the abundant... but isolated resplendens.

It has generally and universally failed to fill much of a niche in the trade except in the Petco whiteslime clownfish department. To call that a success is nonsense.

Steve

Sorry but this coming from one of the worlds largest advocates for wild caught I just don't buy it. Not to mention your data is out of date Steve by a number of years The amount of CB fish is growing and the amount of breeders are growing as well. Many areas of the states do not buy wild caught any longer from personal communications with them, and the breeders as well.

 

[cortez marine]

needing vs wanting

needing vs wanting

Its always the young ones...
Now child....its not that the clownfish "need" an anenome to live in captivity.....its the wanting of it by the consumer en masse..
Especially the vanishing blue carpets...[ and purple, green , red ete.]
The success of domesticating Nemo was not met with a success in breeding host anemones.
If consumers were happy with faux anemones, LT sarcophytons or mops, wonderful....but they want to complete the picture and take away evey wild clownfishes host anemone in the process.
If even 10% of them got wild anemones the deed would be done.
Steve

 

[GreshamH]

Yeah, young, but an old salty to boot :lol: Just cuz I have all my hair don't mean I'm all that young my ancient friend. See what being my MO mentor got yah

Actually quite a bit of RTBA's are cultured now and I personally know of a few farms that came online recently. I for one wouldn't mind all carpets being banned from export/import or at least all wild ones.

 

[deschlayer]

I think this bill is rediculos, what they did on big island make sence and works just as good as this. itincreased numbers of yellow tang in the no catch zone by 95% and in other zones by 35%. It is thing far bigger then collecting of marine ortamentals that are impacting the reefs. like fertalizer run off ext ext. I have dreamed of becoming a collector for 4 years, and know that I am trying to make It happen I find that it is "almost" imposible. Enviromentalist offten TALK about the BIG PICTURE without actualy LOOKING AT IT!!! what matters more have a few less tangs in hawii each year of having acres and acres of reef completly destroyed ever day via blast fishing and cyanid somewhere else? we should promote the ethical collection of marine life in areas that can be regulated rather the promote the illagal methods used elseware. BOTTOM LINE______ this hobbie is not going anyware and if petstore can not buy from florida/hawaii because the prices have gone to high or because some near sighted hippi pass a bill to stop colection, they will buy from the next guy. the problem with the later is no one knows how these fish in unregulated areas are being collected. I would never knowinly support blast fishing but I have no idea if it was or was not used to collect any of my fish. they only fish I have that i know was collected ethicaly is the yellow tang sitting in my tank from hawaii

 

[greenbean36191]

itincreased numbers of yellow tang in the no catch zone by 95% and in other zones by 35%.

I know a whole lot of fisheries folks who could have saved a lot of school and a lot of work if it was that simple. Percent change just doesn't give you the information you need to manage a fishery. These stats don't tell you about age or sex or distribution, survivorship, MSY, CPUE, population variability, recruitment, long vs. short term recovery, genetic diversity, etc. All are important information used for fisheries management. Most of that information isn't available for the YT fishery and what is doesn't paint nearly as rosy a picture as the stats you quoted.

what matters more have a few less tangs in hawii each year of having acres and acres of reef completly destroyed ever day via blast fishing and cyanid somewhere else?

Ignoratio elenchi. If you commit murder, genocide in Darfur isn't a defense just because it has a bigger effect. If YTs are being overcollected in Hawai'i, it's irresponsible regardless of what's going on elsewhere in the world. Hawai'ian lawmakers are responsible for what goes on in their jurisdiction and have no legal authority elsewhere.

I would never knowinly support blast fishing but I have no idea if it was or was not used to collect any of my fish. they only fish I have that i know was collected ethicaly is the yellow tang sitting in my tank from hawaii

I can tell you for sure that none of your fish were collected by blast fishing, nor were any in the hobby. Now how do you know your YT was collected ethically? Using a net doesn't make an ethical fishery if the numbers aren't sustainable. There's a serious lack of data showing that the YT fishery in HI is sustainable.

 

[deschlayer]

While I support your post I do believe that the reason for you post is that I left allot to common sense. The general point of my entire post is that often time’s environmentalists in power disregard basic logic and care only about how there "career" looks in the end. If you look at collection laws you will see that they are set up to fail. The bag limits are ridiculous 250 of these per day 900 of those ext, ext. then they realizes there mistake and "snap" back shouting things like 20 per day limit! Had they of done it right in the first place and said 150 per day per vessel we would probably never be in this boat. They left an open for larger collection operations to exploit these high bag limits. Then they hurt the little guy by changing the law. There is a large loop hole you seem to have missed. The proposed bill states 20 fish PER PERSON and says nothing about per vessel. The small time collectors that are trying to make a living will be hurt by this bill, but the same large collection operations that hurt the reef in the first place will hire migrant workers that will each catch 20 fish per day. The large company will do just fine and the small one man shows will be squashed out.

“If you commit murder, genocide in Darfur isn't a defense just because it has a bigger effect. If YTs are being over collected in Hawaii’s, it's irresponsible regardless of what's going on elsewhere in the world.”

This statement my friend is Ignoratio elenchi, wial it is logical it doesent make sense in a numbers game. I care more about the outcome of a war then I do about the individual lives that are lost in acheving this outcome. I also care more about the earth as a whole then I do for one particular aspect of her enviroment” I for one supported the “Green Credit Programe” the law makes however did not.

“I can tell you for sure that none of your fish were collected by blast fishing, nor were any in the hobby.”

My reference to blast fishing existed only in that it pertained directly to the collection of fish. There are many indirect lines that pertain to why we have seen such a rapid decline of fish/corals in our lifetime. I am upset with this bill because politicians often drop the law books on the ones who will be most affected and have the smallest voice. This can be seemed in many environmental laws today mostly pertaining to accidental pollution.
If my crappie little boat spilt waste into the water I would be “made” to pay the fines immediately and most likely become bankrupt in the process. But in the case of Exxon Valdez this company was able to scape goat the fines and has still not paid. To top it off there are in fact thriving in this world we live in. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/24/eveningnews/main608520.shtml
To end I support that better regulation NEEDS to be in place, this bill however is not “better regulation”. The only thing in this bill I do support is the catch limit on yellow tangs. The reason for this is that the YT can be schooled into large barrier nets and brought up in the hundreds, and that is why we have seen such a decline in this species.

 

[pactrop]

I don't think this bill or any form of it is based on something good. Urban runoff is probably the biggest killers of our near shore waters. Why isn't Snorkel Boob going after that? Personal vendetta.

 

[deschlayer]

^^^^ exactly!!! the same types of enviromentalist that support this bill are the same ones that thought the crown of thorns outbreak that is plaeging the great barrier reef was due to over fishing!!!!! some of these turds still hold true to there orginal diagnosis, but it is pretty widly accepted that uban runoff and fertalizer from suger crops lead to more algee, witch lead to more food for baby crownoff thowns, witch lead to these outbreaks!!! pactrop got the point exactly, its not individual collectors that are killing the reefs and there inhabitants it is many other bigger things, and passing a bill like this is only going to hurt good people, it is not going to save anything, but at the end of the day the envorimentalist will "look" like he did his job when in fact all he did was drop the biggest "book" on the smallest of mice.

 

[cortez marine]

spseudo eco cherrypicking of causes

spseudo eco cherrypicking of causes

".........but it is pretty widely accepted that urban runoff and fertilizer from sugar crops lead to more algae, which lead to more food for baby crown of thowns, which lead to these outbreaks!!!"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Australia, the sugar caused siltation run-off has turned out to be the biggest threat the Great Barrier Reef has ever seen...and dwarfs by a factor of thousands the impact of a half dozen fish collectors.
The collectors catch some nemos but big sugar ruins thousands of square miles of shallow reef habitat erasing countless colonies and generations of them.
However, the regulatory attention given the collectors has been excessive as they were the easy ones to pick on to "show environmental concern and attention".

This cherrypicking of "safe causes" to regulate is disheartening for real environmentalists to behold as it suggests that our government servants are not trying to solve the problems on the reefs but the problems in their own careers.

Taking on big sugar in Australia....is not the same risk as harrassing, badgering and bloviating over a few net-collecting fisherman spread out over the giant barrier reef.

Hawaii and Australia link up on this and provide semi-scientific, ill defined, pseudo environmentalists a small target to try and hit for fear of angering the big ones.

Money grubbing, self obsessed environmental cowards...

Steve

 

[RGBMatt]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12322718#post12322718 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greenbean36191
I know a whole lot of fisheries folks who could have saved a lot of school and a lot of work if it was that simple. Percent change just doesn't give you the information you need to manage a fishery. These stats don't tell you about age or sex or distribution, survivorship, MSY, CPUE, population variability, recruitment, long vs. short term recovery, genetic diversity, etc. All are important information used for fisheries management. Most of that information isn't available for the YT fishery and what is doesn't paint nearly as rosy a picture as the stats you quoted.

We do have most of that data, actually. Although little of it has been published to date, a lot of work has been done in the past ten years to answer those questions. The people in charge of the Kona fishery consistently say that it's sustainable and I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Yellow tangs should be easier to manage than other fisheries, because the fishery targets small fish and leaves the adults alone. As long as a stable breeding population is maintained (via FRAs or other means), there will always be a steady influx of juveniles to catch. This avoids the problem faced by most fisheries, where demand for large fish competes with the need to maintain reproductive potential.

In any case, the Big Island yellow tang fishery is very well monitored; if it does begin to decline it'll be easy to recognize the problem and do something about it.

 

[HippieSmell]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12330830#post12330830 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pactrop
I don't think this bill or any form of it is based on something good. Urban runoff is probably the biggest killers of our near shore waters. Why isn't Snorkel Boob going after that? Personal vendetta.

Why didn't Mother Teresa help those and live in Mexico? If you can't do it all, do what you can. Not that Bob is Mother Teresa, but you get the point.