kingfisher62
New member
I was wondering how that went for you! Glad to hear it!
Help me defend our hobby
- Thread starter BIGG D
- Start date
rharr21
Premium Member
Article on NPR
"Researchers in Florida are growing new coral and transplanting it onto damaged reefs. They're using techniques developed, not by a marine scientist, but by the owner of a tropical fish company."
Read the rest here:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=113294892
"Researchers in Florida are growing new coral and transplanting it onto damaged reefs. They're using techniques developed, not by a marine scientist, but by the owner of a tropical fish company."
Read the rest here:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=113294892
I read a article on him in a magazine as well. Great article wish I lived closer to the ocean I guess they need volunteers to donate time to helping restore some of the reefs and that would be awesome experience.
greenbean36191
Premium Member
Ah, but who developed the methods the owner of the tropical fish company is using? A marine scientist.
grrebean-
One of the best parts of this hobby - is that many of the science community are involved in the hobby.
So - the lines are a bit blurred as to whoa to "thank" and who to "blame":lol2: for anything we know or develop as a practice.
From my near 30 years in the hobby, I can tell you that MANY of the methods and prctices are developed by and for the hobby - prior to the testing and acceptance as "good scientific practice".
T
One of the best parts of this hobby - is that many of the science community are involved in the hobby.
So - the lines are a bit blurred as to whoa to "thank" and who to "blame":lol2: for anything we know or develop as a practice.
From my near 30 years in the hobby, I can tell you that MANY of the methods and prctices are developed by and for the hobby - prior to the testing and acceptance as "good scientific practice".
T
Damn, I'm gonna write an essay here probably lol....
In a way I feel this discussion divides us saltwater guys as well...
We see this is in the car hobby also...There are alot of people out there with the cashflow to make things happen, pay for the nice ride, pay for the upgrades and someone to do the upgrades for them, and drive around in a 800hp car with a big grin all day...
Compared to the guy that gets saves his money for a long time, gets the car, slowly does mod's as he can afford them, slowly building it up, doing the sweat equity himself, until he eventually has a masterpiece he created.
I'm big into cars, and saltwater....so I can see how these 2 hobby's in this way collide. For example, I'd like to paint a picture for many of us here....
We have many saltwater owners, that see a reef setup in a store, the gf/wife is "oooooing" and "ahhhhing" at it, as well as himself...He pulls out his credit card and gets a big tank, lighting, everything off the bat...the LFS sets it up for him and provides a waterchange service for them and takes care of there tank on a regular basis, like a house maid takes care of a home. He then walks around the store with his gf/wife picking and choosing "ooo that one, this one, that one" to various tanks. SPS, LPS corals galore, this fish, that fish "OOOO that seahare is really neat". The LFS owner grin's away with big dollar signs in his eyes. Maybe a few suggestions as to what will or wont, or "might" not work in the tank. But no biggy, if it doesnt work out, its only 20-30-40-50 bucks right. Majority of things in the tank will survive. The lfs puts the corals in his tank, or he does, with minimal advice as to acclimation, etc...he puts his favorites where he can see them really well in the aquarium...Not aware of flow or the proper light parameters....Things look good, great actually...Then a few days....to weeks....things dont look so good anymore, shiveled, melting away, the acro's he got are turning white? why is this? The lfs employee comes over, and adjusts corals accordingly some are already on the way out, but he assures the guy that its the nature of the beast and some "always" die due to "transport and stress" Over time, things have died, the mandarin dragonet was toast after a week, the seahare seems to be "hiding" when its actually dead...
We can all see where this is going....
You now have the reefer like many of us here...many of us, like myself sit on this site trolling for information, after 2 hours I stretch and wonder why I just read 90 pages on a DSB debate and favorited 10 different sites....I was just like that rich guy, "oooooing" and "ahhhhing" in the LFS, and at my friends tanks...But I spent months researching first, got a 2nd hand setup, used for a good price, did it slow, and got the best damn protein skimmer I could fit in my sump lol...Most importantly I have multiple books now including the bible "the book of coral propagation" not to mention the endless amount of fragging knowledge online.
While greenbean is right, we cant sugarcoat a negative thing. Mainly the fact that our hobby contributes to destruction of the natural reefs. I personally believe we can all bring out many positives with our own home aquaria. Many species of corals that were unheard of in home aquariums 10 even 5 years ago, are now flourishing today in peoples homes. Not to mention the fact the enthusiasts like myself are technically unliscenced scientists in many ways. Through our own efforts we've found ways to feed a certain fish, or a coral like a sun coral and with proper care made a non-photosynthetic coral thrive because we nurture it back to health from an owner that didnt have the time or knowledge to raise it properly. Many owners have contributed to coral id's from the ocean, Expecially Acro's. Most importantly certain crabs being id'd that host in a single specific coral, which sometimes is in direct relation if that coral survives or not...Building an archive of those crab's so we can breed them for certain corals...We've found out ways to propagate corals in such a manner that we've contributed to lesser demand of that species, meaning more left in the ocean.
Our destruction like everything else is based on supply and demand. If we all do our part with propagation and opening doors gently with new owners by giving proper advice or incentive to come here and learn/research themselves. If more of us have the balls to stand up to the guy at the LFS and tell the customer she cannot have a "nemo" and that pretty lionfish... I believe we can truely minimize our impact on the reefs.
So for the OP in this thread or to anyone else brought on by someone "smack talking" your aquarium, you can gently explain to them, that you as many others do everything in your power to buy aquacultured, or species propagated from your local forum. You also propagate your own corals to minimize your own impact on the reef. Once you explain what propagation is, and how you can create multiples out of one coral, by going into detail about how to implement surgery on one coral, and how different tactics and ways of cutting, breaking, sawing, are used for different corals, how you spend so much time in caring for these creatures...and after a month be able to provide that species to other owners, quenching the thirst of destruction for a few corals in the ocean...that you yourself are against the destruction of reefs and you're doing all in your power to minimize the supply and demand of species... then explain on a whole how many responsible reef keepers are out there, How technically we're all working together, maintaining our own saltwater "zoo's."
It's a pretty positive light to shed.
All I can do is NOT be naive, understand my contribution to the destruction of reefs, research and propagate. I know within the next year the amount of frags I've sold or traded, or even given away...will far outweigh my wild caught purchases.
We can all act as a team, and slow the demand....eventually slowing the supply. We just have to set a bar for ourselves. I think 10 propagated per 1 bought is a fair compromise. Unless you buy aquacultured or propagated...Speaking personally I have 2 friends that have saltwater tanks, we all buy different species, and are in the process of fragging the species we can, and giving each other the ones we dont have. You purchase 5, you get 15 through propagation. I personally believe this is the answer to our worlds reefs. No we wont "Stop" the destruction completely but we can definitely make a statement to the world and the company's that are collecting from the reefs. And minimize the impact ourselves.
I'm content with my position as a saltwater hobbyist. I will also not hesitate to step into the firing range with someone against it. I myself cannot stop it, but I can do everything in my power to fight it. At least instead of bashing a hobby, I'm actively helping it through propagation. One person propagating is a tiny impact, thousands...a big impact.
Evolution of our hobby will soon enough be owning a propagated tank. To be able to look at a person "oooooing" at your tank and tell them, all the corals in that tank were captive bred, propagated or aquacultured species, and that not of of those corals they're looking at came directly from the ocean.
A reef tank that didnt contribute at all to the destruction of our oceans....It's a future I'm planning on being part of. It just may take a while to get there.
In a way I feel this discussion divides us saltwater guys as well...
We see this is in the car hobby also...There are alot of people out there with the cashflow to make things happen, pay for the nice ride, pay for the upgrades and someone to do the upgrades for them, and drive around in a 800hp car with a big grin all day...
Compared to the guy that gets saves his money for a long time, gets the car, slowly does mod's as he can afford them, slowly building it up, doing the sweat equity himself, until he eventually has a masterpiece he created.
I'm big into cars, and saltwater....so I can see how these 2 hobby's in this way collide. For example, I'd like to paint a picture for many of us here....
We have many saltwater owners, that see a reef setup in a store, the gf/wife is "oooooing" and "ahhhhing" at it, as well as himself...He pulls out his credit card and gets a big tank, lighting, everything off the bat...the LFS sets it up for him and provides a waterchange service for them and takes care of there tank on a regular basis, like a house maid takes care of a home. He then walks around the store with his gf/wife picking and choosing "ooo that one, this one, that one" to various tanks. SPS, LPS corals galore, this fish, that fish "OOOO that seahare is really neat". The LFS owner grin's away with big dollar signs in his eyes. Maybe a few suggestions as to what will or wont, or "might" not work in the tank. But no biggy, if it doesnt work out, its only 20-30-40-50 bucks right. Majority of things in the tank will survive. The lfs puts the corals in his tank, or he does, with minimal advice as to acclimation, etc...he puts his favorites where he can see them really well in the aquarium...Not aware of flow or the proper light parameters....Things look good, great actually...Then a few days....to weeks....things dont look so good anymore, shiveled, melting away, the acro's he got are turning white? why is this? The lfs employee comes over, and adjusts corals accordingly some are already on the way out, but he assures the guy that its the nature of the beast and some "always" die due to "transport and stress" Over time, things have died, the mandarin dragonet was toast after a week, the seahare seems to be "hiding" when its actually dead...
We can all see where this is going....
You now have the reefer like many of us here...many of us, like myself sit on this site trolling for information, after 2 hours I stretch and wonder why I just read 90 pages on a DSB debate and favorited 10 different sites....I was just like that rich guy, "oooooing" and "ahhhhing" in the LFS, and at my friends tanks...But I spent months researching first, got a 2nd hand setup, used for a good price, did it slow, and got the best damn protein skimmer I could fit in my sump lol...Most importantly I have multiple books now including the bible "the book of coral propagation" not to mention the endless amount of fragging knowledge online.
While greenbean is right, we cant sugarcoat a negative thing. Mainly the fact that our hobby contributes to destruction of the natural reefs. I personally believe we can all bring out many positives with our own home aquaria. Many species of corals that were unheard of in home aquariums 10 even 5 years ago, are now flourishing today in peoples homes. Not to mention the fact the enthusiasts like myself are technically unliscenced scientists in many ways. Through our own efforts we've found ways to feed a certain fish, or a coral like a sun coral and with proper care made a non-photosynthetic coral thrive because we nurture it back to health from an owner that didnt have the time or knowledge to raise it properly. Many owners have contributed to coral id's from the ocean, Expecially Acro's. Most importantly certain crabs being id'd that host in a single specific coral, which sometimes is in direct relation if that coral survives or not...Building an archive of those crab's so we can breed them for certain corals...We've found out ways to propagate corals in such a manner that we've contributed to lesser demand of that species, meaning more left in the ocean.
Our destruction like everything else is based on supply and demand. If we all do our part with propagation and opening doors gently with new owners by giving proper advice or incentive to come here and learn/research themselves. If more of us have the balls to stand up to the guy at the LFS and tell the customer she cannot have a "nemo" and that pretty lionfish... I believe we can truely minimize our impact on the reefs.
So for the OP in this thread or to anyone else brought on by someone "smack talking" your aquarium, you can gently explain to them, that you as many others do everything in your power to buy aquacultured, or species propagated from your local forum. You also propagate your own corals to minimize your own impact on the reef. Once you explain what propagation is, and how you can create multiples out of one coral, by going into detail about how to implement surgery on one coral, and how different tactics and ways of cutting, breaking, sawing, are used for different corals, how you spend so much time in caring for these creatures...and after a month be able to provide that species to other owners, quenching the thirst of destruction for a few corals in the ocean...that you yourself are against the destruction of reefs and you're doing all in your power to minimize the supply and demand of species... then explain on a whole how many responsible reef keepers are out there, How technically we're all working together, maintaining our own saltwater "zoo's."
It's a pretty positive light to shed.
All I can do is NOT be naive, understand my contribution to the destruction of reefs, research and propagate. I know within the next year the amount of frags I've sold or traded, or even given away...will far outweigh my wild caught purchases.
We can all act as a team, and slow the demand....eventually slowing the supply. We just have to set a bar for ourselves. I think 10 propagated per 1 bought is a fair compromise. Unless you buy aquacultured or propagated...Speaking personally I have 2 friends that have saltwater tanks, we all buy different species, and are in the process of fragging the species we can, and giving each other the ones we dont have. You purchase 5, you get 15 through propagation. I personally believe this is the answer to our worlds reefs. No we wont "Stop" the destruction completely but we can definitely make a statement to the world and the company's that are collecting from the reefs. And minimize the impact ourselves.
I'm content with my position as a saltwater hobbyist. I will also not hesitate to step into the firing range with someone against it. I myself cannot stop it, but I can do everything in my power to fight it. At least instead of bashing a hobby, I'm actively helping it through propagation. One person propagating is a tiny impact, thousands...a big impact.
Evolution of our hobby will soon enough be owning a propagated tank. To be able to look at a person "oooooing" at your tank and tell them, all the corals in that tank were captive bred, propagated or aquacultured species, and that not of of those corals they're looking at came directly from the ocean.
A reef tank that didnt contribute at all to the destruction of our oceans....It's a future I'm planning on being part of. It just may take a while to get there.
NaClH2Opgh
New member
The premise of the thread pi$$** me off just a little. I don't need to "justify" or "defend" my reef to anyone....except my wife...:lol:
If they don't like the concept of what we are doing then don't look at it and don't be involved in it. But that is never enough, if "they" don't approve then they need to stop everyone from doing what "they" don't approve of...
If they don't like the concept of what we are doing then don't look at it and don't be involved in it. But that is never enough, if "they" don't approve then they need to stop everyone from doing what "they" don't approve of...
Dlhirst
New member
I know I am late to the game on this, but faux 'huggers just cheese me off. I have a "progressive" brother with a hybrid car, always mentions my SUV. Now, mind you, I only get 20mpg, but round trip is 18 miles to work each day. He gets 42mpg, but lives 30 miles from the "office". Of course, he lives there because housing is cheaper... Don't need to be a math major to see that he uses more fuel than me. That the car was built by whale-eaters is of course irrelevant as well, right?
If you ever need ammo, remind your brother that his bicycles were almost certainly made in China, in the most polluting factories imaginable. By 18 year old girls hoping to earn enough money to go home in two years to buy a suitable husband. Only rents a car when he needs one? What does that mean? Does he think we all just leave the engines running on ours? He NEVER NEEDS to rent a car. Heck, the bicycle is not even necessary. Unless he doesn't have feet. And, those cloth diapers? Heh, they are bleaching them to kill any bacteria (or else they are neglectful parents), guess where that chlorine is going... Plus, the amount of energy it takes to wash them far outweighs the energy used to produce a Pamper. Pillows and mattresses aren't made from what? Why is a tree any more special than a caged sheep? Or, a field stripped to grow cotton? They aren't environmentalists at all. Hell, they couldn't even recycle a kid's name!
Sorry, getting off the soapbox now...
If you ever need ammo, remind your brother that his bicycles were almost certainly made in China, in the most polluting factories imaginable. By 18 year old girls hoping to earn enough money to go home in two years to buy a suitable husband. Only rents a car when he needs one? What does that mean? Does he think we all just leave the engines running on ours? He NEVER NEEDS to rent a car. Heck, the bicycle is not even necessary. Unless he doesn't have feet. And, those cloth diapers? Heh, they are bleaching them to kill any bacteria (or else they are neglectful parents), guess where that chlorine is going... Plus, the amount of energy it takes to wash them far outweighs the energy used to produce a Pamper. Pillows and mattresses aren't made from what? Why is a tree any more special than a caged sheep? Or, a field stripped to grow cotton? They aren't environmentalists at all. Hell, they couldn't even recycle a kid's name!
Sorry, getting off the soapbox now...
cortez marine
In Memoriam
Environmental complicity
Environmental complicity
Guys,
Environmental oganizations claiming to address the problems in the aquarium trade you all speak of have been on payroll for at least 20 years now.
Environmental organizations that google up every, negative thing imagineable that they could find about the trade and then regurgitate it into an alarm and call for funding.
Over the past 20 years they have spent more then 20 million dollars addressing the issues, engaging the issues, getting paid to work full time on the issues, reporting monthly on their progress and converting that progress into target charts and justification for futher funding.
And thru out this thread there is no mention of their much ballyhooed self proclaimed achievements??
Have you not heard?
Or was it not true?
Surely environmentally concerned [ or semi-concerned] folks wouldn't "fib for funding" now would they?
And if our revered environmentalist friends fib for funding, how can you break the news to the poor, well meaning greenies at the dinner table?
Steve
Environmental complicity
Guys,
Environmental oganizations claiming to address the problems in the aquarium trade you all speak of have been on payroll for at least 20 years now.
Environmental organizations that google up every, negative thing imagineable that they could find about the trade and then regurgitate it into an alarm and call for funding.
Over the past 20 years they have spent more then 20 million dollars addressing the issues, engaging the issues, getting paid to work full time on the issues, reporting monthly on their progress and converting that progress into target charts and justification for futher funding.
And thru out this thread there is no mention of their much ballyhooed self proclaimed achievements??
Have you not heard?
Or was it not true?
Surely environmentally concerned [ or semi-concerned] folks wouldn't "fib for funding" now would they?
And if our revered environmentalist friends fib for funding, how can you break the news to the poor, well meaning greenies at the dinner table?
Steve
greenbean36191
Premium Member
In this case it's pretty clear cut. The methods they're using were developed over 100 years ago at the Tortugas Marine Lab. The guys there were not only the first to frag corals and grow them out, but they were also spawning corals and growing the larvae out to adulthood- something very few hobbyists have managed even today.
cortez marine
In Memoriam
G-bean,
I want and respect your opinion on my post a minute ago.
Obviously we know that not all lawyers, doctors, hobbyists or scientists are good...or not good.
Everyones just human.
But....the novelty of playing with tropical fish projects I fear has led some scientific figures to misuse credentials in another field and mis-apply it to ours..[ MAC, Haribon, IMA, Ocean Voice, WWF etc.]
As a result have ruined the aquarium trades response to relevant issues.
When attacked, importers would often point out their co-operation and support with these groups whose credentials in this trade were amatuerish at best.
I have a good number of friends in trade who would wink at the foolishness and chronic parade of error commited by these groups...the joke being they were being covered and de-odorized by them ... and as a result were cleansed at last.
Since these independant and scientific groups had more credentials ...who are simple peddlers to complain and second guess them?
If phoney NGOs w/ scientific credibility are to predictably and routinely mis-handle and misfire on the issues...then they to should share the blame for their knowing and willful malfeasence and incompetence.
Such insight as mine here is generally not welcomed by fellow dealers as it reveals the NGO-Eco veener that they have enjoyed hiding behind freeing them from responsibility.
Steve
I want and respect your opinion on my post a minute ago.
Obviously we know that not all lawyers, doctors, hobbyists or scientists are good...or not good.
Everyones just human.
But....the novelty of playing with tropical fish projects I fear has led some scientific figures to misuse credentials in another field and mis-apply it to ours..[ MAC, Haribon, IMA, Ocean Voice, WWF etc.]
As a result have ruined the aquarium trades response to relevant issues.
When attacked, importers would often point out their co-operation and support with these groups whose credentials in this trade were amatuerish at best.
I have a good number of friends in trade who would wink at the foolishness and chronic parade of error commited by these groups...the joke being they were being covered and de-odorized by them ... and as a result were cleansed at last.
Since these independant and scientific groups had more credentials ...who are simple peddlers to complain and second guess them?
If phoney NGOs w/ scientific credibility are to predictably and routinely mis-handle and misfire on the issues...then they to should share the blame for their knowing and willful malfeasence and incompetence.
Such insight as mine here is generally not welcomed by fellow dealers as it reveals the NGO-Eco veener that they have enjoyed hiding behind freeing them from responsibility.
Steve
Mad_Reefer
New member
I think this is the most important point. The earth is finite and many people still think of it as infinite.
Spyder_78
Member
Question...
Answer...
It is pretty simple really, either we will stop it ourselves or something in nature will put a stop to it.
As the worlds population grows the resources needed to sustain it will become more and more scarce, eventually leading people to fight over them, at some point countries will go to war over resources and war = less people.
Nature has already done this on relatively small scale (black plague).
Now cram millions of people into a small space and have something similar happen, people get scared and run to another city unknowingly spreading the disease and the whole cycle starts over.
Just as posted already it is only a matter of time. I don't like it but thats reality.
Answer...
It is pretty simple really, either we will stop it ourselves or something in nature will put a stop to it.
As the worlds population grows the resources needed to sustain it will become more and more scarce, eventually leading people to fight over them, at some point countries will go to war over resources and war = less people.
Nature has already done this on relatively small scale (black plague).
Now cram millions of people into a small space and have something similar happen, people get scared and run to another city unknowingly spreading the disease and the whole cycle starts over.
Just as posted already it is only a matter of time. I don't like it but thats reality.
Lateralus
Member
(It is pretty simple really, either we will stop it ourselves...) Would never happen unless its forced sterilization under threat of death. That could get bloody.:fun2:
(...or something in nature will put a stop to it.) If I'm a betting man I'd subscribe to this here. It's happened and will happen again.
Good example btw. Could you imagine the carnage that would follow an outbreak that kills a 1/3 of the population? Especially in a country thats soo dependant on technology and convenience stores?
(...or something in nature will put a stop to it.) If I'm a betting man I'd subscribe to this here. It's happened and will happen again.
Good example btw. Could you imagine the carnage that would follow an outbreak that kills a 1/3 of the population? Especially in a country thats soo dependant on technology and convenience stores?
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