Higher Calcium Level for SPS Growth? (vs Health)

[Peter Eichler]

I dunno... its always been my understanding that Mag should be 15X alk and 3X cal.. A technique i utilise at my farm and we can turn out a frag with full tile basing within 6 weeks..

I haven't seen anything scientific or even anecdotal to support that balanced or elevated levels increase growth. My corals grow alarmingly fast whether magnesium 1200 or 2200 and calcium is 380 or 500ppm, while those parameters have changed a lot throughout the years, alkalinity has remained below 8.5 dKH for some time, and typically below 8.

 

[Spslvr]

I haven't seen anything scientific or even anecdotal to support it. My corals grow alarmingly fast whether magnesium 1200 or 2200 and calcium is 380 or 500ppm, while those parametrs have changed a l;ot throughout the years, alkalinity has remained below 8.5 dKH for some time, and typically below 8.

I am not disputing that... as i said this is just a guide that we utilise here at the farm, anectode or not it does make some sense and is a good starting point...

At the end of the day it cant hurt and may help....

We have played around with all sorts of parameters with alk from nsw levels right up to 14 dkh nd this formula just seems to work best [for us] then again we are using natural sunlight, we also employ electrolysis and add plant fertiliser for nutrients... so really who knows mabe im a fool with no idea what im doing....

 

[Aquattro]

My tank runs at about 420/Ca, 12dkh/alk and 1100 Mg, no real complaints growing coral. I've also run different numbers than this, still no issues. As I posted earlier, the only thing that's affected growth (that I've observed) is temp. Well, and Ca below 380ish

 

[Spslvr]

What does "15X" Alk and "3X" Cal mean. (the nX part).

I am dosing Randy's A/B formula http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/4/chemistry
so I'm dosing A/B equally, and that is keeping my Alk/Calc levels stable (Minor adjustment needed after Water Changes when I don't buffer up my Salt Mix")

For any Alk/Cal. adjustments I use the Reef Chemistry Calculator http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html

Well for instance if you cal is 450 then times that by 3 for your mag ie 450x3= 1350 so you mag should be 1350 the divide your mag by 15 which = 90 so your alk should be 9.0

 

[Spslvr]

My tank runs at about 420/Ca, 12dkh/alk and 1100 Mg, no real complaints growing coral. I've also run different numbers than this, still no issues. As I posted earlier, the only thing that's affected growth (that I've observed) is temp. Well, and Ca below 380ish

do you find better growth with higher or lower temps?

And im not for 1 minute saying that making your own parameters is bad but if you are having problems its not going to hurt if you use my calculator

 

[Peter Eichler]

I am not disputing that... as i said this is just a guide that we utilise here at the farm, anectode or not it does make some sense and is a good starting point...

At the end of the day it cant hurt and may help....

We have played around with all sorts of parameters with alk from nsw levels right up to 14 dkh nd this formula just seems to work best [for us] then again we are using natural sunlight, we also employ electrolysis and add plant fertiliser for nutrients... so really who knows mabe im a fool with no idea what im doing....

I think it could hurt if PO4 and NO3 are really low and anyone tried to push their alkalinity past 9 dKH. Other than that, you're right and there's probably no harm in following your approach as a guide. Do you have a thread or link with more info about the farm, and the electrolysis in particular? Thanks!

 

[Spslvr]

I think it could hurt if PO4 and NO3 are really low and anyone tried to push their alkalinity past 9 dKH. Other than that, you're right and there's probably no harm in following your approach as a guide. Do you have a thread or link with more info about the farm, and the electrolysis in particular? Thanks!

there is another thread in sps section titled the farm.

As for the electro thats something we are a bit secretive about for now. I have a thread on rtaw under advanced concepts if you want to browse through it...

Also im not totally convinced that the big three are directly involved in the burnt tips in ulns phenomena my home tanks are all run above 9 dkh and are carbon dosed with ulns and ive never had burnt tips im not convinced alk plays a direct part in this...

 

[Peter Eichler]

there is another thread in sps section titled the farm.

As for the electro thats something we are a bit secretive about for now. I have a thread on rtaw under advanced concepts if you want to browse through it...

Also im not totally convinced that the big three are directly involved in the burnt tips in ulns phenomena my home tanks are all run above 9 dkh and are carbon dosed with ulns and ive never had burnt tips im not convinced alk plays a direct part in this...

The burnt tips have been pretty repeatable in my system when alkalinity has gone higher than 9 dKH. The problem has occurred when nitrate or PO4 levels have been undetectable, carbon dosing or not doesn't seem to be a factor either, it's the actual nutrient levels in my experience.

I'll check out the thread on the farm.

Cheers,
Ike

 

[Spslvr]

Yes i understand that, my po4 and no3 are also undetectable as i said i tend to think its more of a multiple factor type deal some missing minor trace perhapse mabe in conjunction with high intensity lighting and nutrient poor systems then the raised alk..... kinda like the straw so to speak.

Then again i keep my big three in line with the guide i posted before...

Mabe there is something in it..

Without having read through their journals i wonder if triton labs have the same experience with burnt tips..

 

[Myka]

I would go A1 and B1. Raise temp to address growth, swing is fine, and feed more while aiming for 0ppm on both. Even if you get slightly above 0ppm, fine, but aim there. Adding more fish, feeding heavy and skimming and perhaps larger water changes would, IMO, fix the issues.

I agree.

For sps you want to be putting nutrients in and then aggressively removing.

I think that's one of the biggest SPS "secrets".

The burnt tips have been pretty repeatable in my system when alkalinity has gone higher than 9 dKH. The problem has occurred when nitrate or PO4 levels have been undetectable, carbon dosing or not doesn't seem to be a factor either, it's the actual nutrient levels in my experience.

I have the exact same repeatable experiences.

 

[Peter Eichler]

Yes i understand that, my po4 and no3 are also undetectable as i said i tend to think its more of a multiple factor type deal some missing minor trace perhapse mabe in conjunction with high intensity lighting and nutrient poor systems then the raised alk..... kinda like the straw so to speak.

I don't doubt that there is some other factor(s) at play that is common in lower nutrient systems. Even with undetectable levels, frequent feedings seem to help prevent the burnt tips. I ran an sps tank for years with undetectable levels of nitrate and a dKH in the 10-12 range and never had a single problem, fast forward to my experiments with carbon dosing several years ago and oversize skimmers on my systems today and it's a big issue if my alkalinity rises beyond a certain level. I've suspected that available ammonium may play a part, but don't have much to base that belief on.

 

[Spslvr]

I don't doubt that there is some other factor(s) at play that is common in lower nutrient systems. Even with undetectable levels, frequent feedings seem to help prevent the burnt tips. I ran an sps tank for years with undetectable levels of nitrate and a dKH in the 10-12 range and never had a single problem, fast forward to my experiments with carbon dosing several years ago and oversize skimmers on my systems today and it's a big issue if my alkalinity rises beyond a certain level. I've suspected that available ammonium may play a part, but don't have much to base that belief on.

You are correct, with our trialling of plant fertilliser our frags respond really well and in it is a carfully mixed blend of ammonium, phosphorus, nitrogen i think this is a very much underestimated field that will become the norm in a few years..

Apologies to the op we are getting off the beaten track

 

[Wally.B]

Well for instance if you cal is 450 then times that by 3 for your mag ie 450x3= 1350 so you mag should be 1350 the divide your mag by 15 which = 90 so your alk should be 9.0

So while my new fish go thru quaretine I'm going to try the things suggested in this thread to improve SPS growth and reduce pale colors.
Nothing is drastic or risky.

1) Adjust my Calc, Alk, Mag using the 3x, 15x formula (no drastic Alk change)
2) Tank now running warmer 78-79
3) Started feeding the current fish more. They love it.
3) Plus for now increasing nutrients with overnight feeding of OysterFeast
4) Also early daytime dose of Coral Snow to speed up nutrient export via skimmer so that by time MH lights come on nutrients are lower
(reducing chance of light + Higher nutrients driving algae growth, which I'm terrified of.)
5) Watch NO3 PO4 closely.

I'll post a picture in a week or so to see if any SPS paleness goes away
Another pic a few weeks later to see if any better growth.

May take longer to see any noticeable results. We'll see.

 

[Spslvr]

Sounds like a plan

 

[JB NY]

So here are some baseline that I use for my for water parameters.

Alk 8 dKH (I think 8-9 is fine, if you get burnt tip drop it to around 7.5)
Ca 450
Mg 1400

NO3 2-5 ppm
PO4 0.08-0.02

Keep them very stable, like every time you test (the same time of day) the parameters are the same. People overlook how important this is, because it is hard for many to get the tank this stable. This is what we mean when we say the tank should be mature. It means you have everything dialed in, and it never moves. Once you have that good things will happen.

Water flow. Strong currently all around the tank is a very big factor in getting good growth. I have got just as good results with strong water flow as I have with strong lighting.

So to give you an idea of what I am talking about this is two years of growth. The whole tank was started with nothing but tiny 1" frags.

2 years later.

This tank used carbon dosing and GFO heavily. Nitrates always undetectable and Phosphates at under 0.02. The only thing added other than fish food were Salifert Amino Acids.

 

[Wally.B]

Very Nice tank! (What size is it, to compare fish load to mine)

Would you have a 1 year picture since that is where I am?

You just gave me hope, motivation and a goal.

The only thing missing in my current plan is the carbon dosing. Will consider.

 

[JB NY]

Very Nice tank! (What size is it, to compare fish load to mine)

Would you have a 1 year picture since that is where I am?

You just gave me hope, motivation and a goal.

The only thing missing in my current plan is the carbon dosing. Will consider.

One year.

I am not telling you to carbon dose. Despite the pictures I posted, I am now restarting this tank and not using carbon dosing or GFO. I feel that the same or better results can be had without all the hassle of carbon dosing and GFO.

 

[Wally.B]

WOW!! My frag tank is really behind on growth for 1 year.
Definitely needs adjustments.
(More fish/nutrients appears to be the solution). Since I have everything else in check.

 

[Myka]

Before you go too crazy feeding - what are you using for a skimmer?

 

[Wazzel]

Something is holding you back, I got lots more growth than that in my first year, even with having to deal with red bugs.

I run Ca at 430, Alk at 8 and Mg around 1300 (I do not check that often).

I have 6 fish in my 60 so I feed quite a bit more than you, probably.