Higher Calcium Level for SPS Growth? (vs Health)

[brad65ford]

Your point makes sense to me, and kind of the direction I was going originally back in Feb.
(lowering light intensity, photoperiods), since I thought I was harming corals with too strong lights.

I'll hold off on the lighting change increases. Possibly a tad lower. And purely get back to focusing on nutrients, to improve health and color.

Don't know your system size etc.. but how many fish do you have? Remember just feeding food will not feed corals as well as the fish peeing and pooping which converting the ammonia process quicker then food braking down, mind you thats if you have enough denitrification ability .

 

[Piper27]

Yes i understand that, my po4 and no3 are also undetectable as i said i tend to think its more of a multiple factor type deal some missing minor trace perhapse mabe in conjunction with high intensity lighting and nutrient poor systems then the raised alk..... kinda like the straw so to speak.

Then again i keep my big three in line with the guide i posted before...

Mabe there is something in it..

Without having read through their journals i wonder if triton labs have the same experience with burnt tips..

I was under the impression they use iron supplements or something along those lines to keep their tips from burning? This would be a good thread to start on the topic if anyone knows about it so we don't clog the op's thread.


OP I would add more fish, I would take out the large chromis before adding a lot of small ones, this would end up with one much quicker. Although peter is right and you will most of the time end up with just one, a large tank with well fed fish can keep a nice school of chromis for years fairly easily. My experience is one a year will go missing at best. Some of your corals look really pale. I am sure you will get it figured out soon.

 

[Myka]

What do you have in your tank for flow? I don't think you've mentioned this. Those pics you showed, the corals don't look happy in any of the photos.

 

[Wally.B]

What do you have in your tank for flow? I don't think you've mentioned this. Those pics you showed, the corals don't look happy in any of the photos.

Tank flow should be good at this point.
I made adjustments over the last year, since it was quite poor, when it started off by running on a Mag 2 (250GPH) return only (with a Sea Swirl).

Current setup for this 65 Gal tank:

Return Pump: Mag 9.5 @3feet (740 GPH) via Sea Swirl (Return Maxed out)
Circulation Pump1: Hydor Koralia (1500 GPH) Apex Cycled.
Circulation Pump2: Hydor Koralia (1500 GPH) Apex Cycled.
Circulation Pump3: Tunzee Nanostream (476 GPH) Apex Cycled.

 

[Wally.B]

OP I would add more fish, I would take out the large chromis before adding a lot of small ones, this would end up with one much quicker.

I returned the set of small chromis fish today for a credit note. Will be looking for different fish.

As above. (Currrent fish load is: 1xYellow Tang, 1xDiamond Back Goby, 1xMedium Chromis and 1xMandarin Goby)

 

[Wally.B]

Just throwing this out there.....

Since I have a low nutrient issue (it appears), and I'll do anything to turn these frags around, would getting a ZeoVit system on this tank be a recommened option?

Sound like a lot or work going with ZeoVit maintenance. However it has been a lot of work & adjustments to figure things outs.

Not considering that route yet, since I can't give up trying the direction I'm going (more fish). But the system is on sale for 40% off this month.

The reason for this ask is I've been baffled with this first SPS tank over the last year.
(Especially after getting, Better Lighting, Improved Circulation, Good nutrient export, Proper Maintenace and Parameters really stable)
My frags when bought had color. Which faded over time, and turned brown. Which I have been told (browning) is due to feeding corals.
Then at the same time, I have corals that are pale, so that appears to be lack of nutrients.
So why do I have both conditions (darkening brown, and fading pale). And of course, slow growth.

Is it all about having enough quality nutrients (like fish waste), VS less-valueable (coral food additives)? After all other things are in check.

 

[Wally.B]

I'm slowing down extra fish feeding, since I may have over done things.
Stopping Coral feedings of Oyster feast.

One pump had a coating in redish, cyano looking algae today. Scared me big time.
Never seen this before in this tank.

Nothing on sand, rocks or Corals..

Assume tank needs to adjust bacteria levels to handle increased nutrients.
Changed Carbon. Turned up skimmer.

Go to be careful.

 

[ndrwater]

Gonna throw my 2 cents in here. I think part of your problem that you have missed is the importance of Amino Acids. I, like you, watched beautiful corals turn pale and or brown. My params were right in line with many of the other posters here. After talking to some knowledgeable reefers here in Southern California, I decided on Acropower. Since using the Amino supplement, my corals have really taken off. The other thing I discovered was the lack of sufficient Potassium. Potassium is used by blue, pink and purple corals to maintain color.
Testing for potassium is a bit of a PIA, but... Worth it in the long run. Since going with an Acropower regimen, as well as getting my potassium where it needs to be, the growth and color of my corals has been like night and day. I will say however, that I would start slowly with the Amino's as an overdose can cause unwanted algae or cyano.
Good luck and keep up the diligent work. You will be rewarded.

 

[Wally.B]

Gonna throw my 2 cents in here. I think part of your problem that you have missed is the importance of Amino Acids. I, like you, watched beautiful corals turn pale and or brown. My params were right in line with many of the other posters here. After talking to some knowledgeable reefers here in Southern California, I decided on Acropower. Since using the Amino supplement, my corals have really taken off. The other thing I discovered was the lack of sufficient Potassium. Potassium is used by blue, pink and purple corals to maintain color.
Testing for potassium is a bit of a PIA, but... Worth it in the long run. Since going with an Acropower regimen, as well as getting my potassium where it needs to be, the growth and color of my corals has been like night and day. I will say however, that I would start slowly with the Amino's as an overdose can cause unwanted algae or cyano.
Good luck and keep up the diligent work. You will be rewarded.

Interesting that you mentioned this.

Since I am already increasing nutrients via fish, but that will take time.

I thought I'd include some additives for Growth, & Color, and decide on these:

Yes this is cheating, but I've been patient enough (the clean way), and will start with sub recommended dosing.

Yesterday I ordered:

• 
  1x bottle of AcroPower for Amino Acids ( For growth )

• 1x bottle of ZeoVit Phol's Coral Vitalizer ( For Polyp Expansion, growth and General Colors). 2 drops a day can't hurt.

• 1x bottle of Polyp Lab - Poly-Booster ( For Coral Feeding stimulation, and Amino Acids, Fatty Acids)

• 1x 5 tablets of ZeoVit Automatic Elements Potassium Iodide ( For Blue and Green coloration )

• 1x 5 tablets of ZeoVit Automatic Elements B-Balance ( For Red coloration)

Should arrive by end of week.

I'll play with these cautiously (ie. not both amino's at same time) and will monitor tank/coral conditions closely.

If anyone has had bad experiences with any of the above, let me know. ( Got 2 checkmarks from NDRWATER so far. )

 

[Myka]

Simply from following this thread, I get a feeling you like to tinker with the tank a lot since you seem to change your mind and flit to another thought/idea quickly. This may be part of your problem - you may be messing with the tank too much. Acros like it when you sit there and watch them grow and don't mess with them.

Oh, and I think your flow is on the low end of ok. Bigger powerheads wouldn't hurt, or just replace that one little one. Sump turnover doesn't really count when figuring it out flow, but I'm not sure why you have such big turnover through your sump? I like to stick around 5-8x total system volume through the sump.

 

[Wally.B]

I agree about me getting into tinker mode , however I used to be too busy keeping parameters stable manually, or adjusting circulation pump positions.

Adding an Apex controller solved the pump position challenges with cycling.
Also Apex for automated dosing got Alk/Calc really stable, leaving me time to play around for faster progress, or finding a healing tonic for the not so healthy corals.
Or just a case of tank maintenance withdrawal syndrome.

I get your point, you shouldn't rush nature. I should take a step back and watch stable progress. I'll try to take your advice, if possible.

With respect to the too fast return.
Plan was to get a smaller pump but that one was on sale, and I have a valve on it that I can throttle back if needed.
However since it runs my sea swirl back and forth return, that contributes to the in tank random circulation, which I believe is a good thing. (Anything wrong with too much tank cycle flow?)
The little pump is there for surface agitation, and pushes surface water towards the overflow. (It turns off during feeding time, to avoid food going into sump).

Yes, I do need to keep busy. While setting up this SPS tank, I kept busy by renovating my two tank sump room.

FROM THIS

TO THIS

 

[markalot]

So much advice here.

I want to stick to two things I noticed. You say you wet skim and change the cup more than once a day? I tend to skim a lot drier and change the cup every other day. Using NOPOX I was able to drop my nitrates from 15 to < 5 in 15 days, so the skimming was enough for those needs.

The pictures of the corals you show are the classic look of starved acros IMO. I've done this, gotten good growth, but poor pale colors. I might first look into backing off the skimmer a bit, but I'm far from an expert here.

 

[Wally.B]

The pictures of the corals you show are the classic look of starved acros IMO. I've done this, gotten good growth, but poor pale colors. I might first look into backing off the skimmer a bit, but I'm far from an expert here.

The daily VERY WET SKIM is another mystery I'm trying to solve (A factor for starved Corals).

I have two exactly the same EuroReef Skimmers.

However even if I switch them around, the SPS tank skimmer still skims very wet, even at lowest setting. The other TANK skimmer skims normal at medium setting.
This SPS tank does have a much higher water turn over.

(Combined...Stripping nutrients and trace elements...Thus supporting my theory to dose/feed and/or need for more frequent water change. Maybe even turn off skimmer at some point).

What baffles me, is I can watch the skimmer for a while and nothing. Then I come back a few hours later and cup almost full.

I believe this is being caused by my Diamond Watch Goby. He must trigger the wet skim when he is hungry and starts to sift/turn over the sand.
He releases the nutrients in sand, and triggers the over skim.

I see no harm, since sand is sparkling white, after year of no cleaning.
(If you hate cleaning your sand. Get an DiamondWatch Goby. Only caution, is you can't place corals low on Sand. He will cover them.

 

[mic209]

If you want to raise 1 of the majors you have to raise all of them ie for cal of 450 you need alk at 9 and mag at 1350, if you want cal at 480 you need alk at 9.6 and mag at 1440. you should notice a difference in growth if your other factors are correct. Lighting, flow etc

Just curious, where did you get these numbers from? As stated above, corals don't math. As long as your CA, ALK and MAG are within an acceptable range, your coral will grow as long as you have flow, lighting and nutrients handled.

 

[Peter Eichler]

The daily VERY WET SKIM is another mystery I'm trying to solve (A factor for starved Corals).

I have two exactly the same EuroReef Skimmers.

However even if I switch them around, the SPS tank skimmer still skims very wet, even at lowest setting. The other TANK skimmer skims normal at medium setting.
This SPS tank does have a much higher water turn over.

(Combined...Stripping nutrients and trace elements...Thus supporting my theory to dose/feed and/or need for more frequent water change. Maybe even turn off skimmer at some point).

What baffles me, is I can watch the skimmer for a while and nothing. Then I come back a few hours later and cup almost full.

I believe this is being caused by my Diamond Watch Goby. He must trigger the wet skim when he is hungry and starts to sift/turn over the sand.
He releases the nutrients in sand, and triggers the over skim.

I see no harm, since sand is sparkling white, after year of no cleaning.
(If you hate cleaning your sand. Get an DiamondWatch Goby. Only caution, is you can't place corals low on Sand. He will cover them.

Inconsistent foam is more the sign of the skimmer skimming too wet or being too large for a tank. You should try to elevate the skimmer by an inch or two on a platform or lower your water level in your sump. Also, I do feel your turnover in the sump is too much and that can also cause some issues with how a tank is skimmed.

I do agree with others that you're tinkering too much and that it's still an issue of starved corals, but ti does seem you have a lot of little things wrong. Work on getting the nutrients up a bit and consistently for several weeks. Amino acids will help if that is the issue, but most likely amino acids help corals more so as a nitrogen source than anything, so just getting a little higher fish load and upping feedings will have the same effect at a cheaper cost.

 

[Peter Eichler]

The daily VERY WET SKIM is another mystery I'm trying to solve (A factor for starved Corals).

I have two exactly the same EuroReef Skimmers.

However even if I switch them around, the SPS tank skimmer still skims very wet, even at lowest setting. The other TANK skimmer skims normal at medium setting.
This SPS tank does have a much higher water turn over.

(Combined...Stripping nutrients and trace elements...Thus supporting my theory to dose/feed and/or need for more frequent water change. Maybe even turn off skimmer at some point).

What baffles me, is I can watch the skimmer for a while and nothing. Then I come back a few hours later and cup almost full.

I believe this is being caused by my Diamond Watch Goby. He must trigger the wet skim when he is hungry and starts to sift/turn over the sand.
He releases the nutrients in sand, and triggers the over skim.

I see no harm, since sand is sparkling white, after year of no cleaning.
(If you hate cleaning your sand. Get an DiamondWatch Goby. Only caution, is you can't place corals low on Sand. He will cover them.

Inconsistent foam is more the sign of the skimmer skimming too wet or being too large for a tank. You should try to elevate the skimmer by an inch or two on a platform or lower your water level in your sump. Also, I do feel your turnover in the sump is too much and that can also cause some issues with how a tank is skimmed.

I do agree with others that you're tinkering too much and that it's still an issue of starved corals, but it does seem you have a lot of little things wrong. However, you want to be able to identify the problem, and changing a bunch of things at once will make that a little difficult. Work on getting the nutrients up a bit and consistently for several weeks. Amino acids will help if that is the issue, but most likely amino acids help corals more so as a nitrogen source than anything, so just getting a little higher fish load and upping feedings will have the same effect at a cheaper cost.

 

[Wally.B]

Inconsistent foam is more the sign of the skimmer skimming too wet or being too large for a tank. You should try to elevate the skimmer by an inch or two on a platform or lower your water level in your sump. Also, I do feel your turnover in the sump is too much and that can also cause some issues with how a tank is skimmed.

I can't raise skimmer, or lower water level in sump. Skimmer Pump input is just a couple of inches below water surface.

So I throttled back the return pump value to approx. 60%.
We'll see if skimmer quiets down over next day. I'll know right away since cup fills clear wet daily.

 

[Wally.B]

I just want to make a small clarification, to ensure everyone's feedback has proper reference.

Although the tank was started a year ago May 2014. The Frags didn't go in till 4 months later in Sept, so effectively the original corals are only 8 month old, many others younger.

Also since I was a newbie to SPS anything, I was buying the cheapest $5,$10,$20 frags, expecting them to die while learning to care for them. Some did.

So as per first picture below, the original new frags I put in didn't have much color to start with, so perhaps they never will.

Recent additions have been bit better quality and there may be hope for better coloration. Once I trust this tank, I'll buy some more expensive color promising frags.


SEPT 2014 (The Beginning)

TODAY MAY 2015 (with all 4 fish visible)

Perhaps my expectations are too high?

And although I have been accused of tinkering too much (rightfully so).
I think of this early stage as fine tuning adjustments and learning, for hopefully a better phase. (next 6-12 months or so).

 

[Wally.B]

Quick update.

Found a fish at LFS to help with more nutrients.

A small Female SpotBreastAngel (genicanthus Melanospilu). Will be in quarantine tank for next 2 weeks if all goes well. (Actual Photo Below).

From my research this is a Reef Safe fish, and properly sized for my 65 Gal Tank (Correct?).
Down the road she can be moved to my 95 Gal LPS if outgrows this tank.

This is my first time doing proper Fish Quarentine (lesson learned). Put 10 Gal tank up against back side of Display Tank to get fish to know each other.

- The Lights have been raised, and have slowly increase PhotoPeriod 5 or so minutes a day. I'm up to 5hs 30mins.

- Been feeding the corals the Oyster Feast overnight each day, and it may be my imagination, but when Actnics come on at night, there appears to be a more colorful glow (pinks and greens).
Daytime lights, can't see any difference yet. (( No sign of any algae bloom anymore ))

- As far as inconsistent skimming skimmer. Setup two WEB Cams, for 10 Minute Timelaps snapshots. One at skimmer and One at tank. Will figure out when the skim bursts happen and why.

Yes, I'm tinkering lightly.

 

[Myka]

Yes, I'm tinkering lightly.

Haha! I like your webcam idea.