Host anemones allopathic interactions

[Toddrtrex]

Todd I said you brought it up nothing more. Yes Minh a Ritt was three feet down the tank.

I have many shots here of my 215g which had Haddoni Quad and a Ritt. For two years.

It's a valid subject for discussion. It's not like we can, at the hobby level, say x is given off by y thereby killing it or poisoning subject b. The raceways in California we've all seen that they never segregate our Cnidaria. It's just a tough thing to isolate. I can't or won't say the anecdotal things you've seen aren't true in your case.

Was the Nem under stress and giving off some defense chemical?
Could it be filtration?
Proximity?
Water quality parameter we don't collect?

I honestly don't know and wouldn't guess because it wouldn't hold up to scrutiny and outliers.

If it won't hold up to your scrutiny, it really isn't worth discussing...

 

[OrionN]

Nice tank Minh, is that the gig we were talking about?

Yes it is, the larger and healthier one of the two. The green one is catching up quickly since I only feed it and not the yellow one.

 

[kris4647]

If it won't hold up to your scrutiny, it really isn't worth discussing...

I'm not understanding the negativity? I gave an opinion that's all. I've not been negative about anyone or idea.

I'd love to hear your experiences.

 

[82ndengineer]

Sweet

 

[reefkeeper2]

I took a look at this thread because I have kept different species of anemone together successfully in the past. Presently I have a 10 year old gigantea and I just introduced a magnifica last week. I had haddoni, gigantea and an unidentified pink tip together for years. Right now the gigantea hosts 7 pink skunks. The new magnifica hosts 3 Ocellaris. The pink skunks where traveling back and forth between the two anemones until I introduced the Ocellaris which took over the mag. Both anemones look fine.
I have never been totally convinced of the existance of alleopathy in anemones. This is because I can't see how it could possibly work on a reef in the open ocean. I also can't see what advantage it would give. Alleopathy is an adaptation to help an organism compete for space and eliminate competition. Why would having a different species of anemone three feet away from you be detrimental to your survival? Maybe there is a reason but I can't think of one. IMHO, if an anemone produces something that inhibits the growth or sickens another anemone present in the tank, it is by accident and not design. Also I suspect if an anemone in your aquarium released it's nematocysts into the water, it would not be just your other anemone that would show the effects. All your animals would be adversly affected. I can't imagine what free floating nematocysts would do to fish gills. So, until it is proven otherwise I am going to remain really doubtful about the exisitence of alleopathy in anemones.

 

[OrionN]

I agree with Paul. With the water movement in the ocean, how many second does anything release stay around in the vicinity of the anemone?
Direct contact is another matter but it is very doubtful that anemone release chemical to attach or inhibit each other.
We know that when a Magnifica got chew up by pump or PH, it would wipe out all fish except for the clowns in the tank.

 

[reefkeeper2]

I will have a pretty good skimmer and more than average water change. I will use a Carbon and Phos obsorber in canister with force water pump throug it. I will try to keep a thread on it and see how these guys will fare.

Since I am doing the exact same thing, I will post results on that thread also. My mag was introduced on Saturday, 2/2/2013. It is eating well, (small chunks of salmon) and has not deflated at all. I will get a pic tomorrow.

 

[82ndengineer]

You know now that we are talking about releasing nematocysts , my old mag that walked into a korallia killed all my fish due to just that. Any nematocysts released would irratate fishes gills and be noticeable to us. So I doubt that is the cause. Maybe a anemone specific bacteria or fungal infection. Like I said my clowns go back and forth so if there was a problem it would have to be from prolonged, direct contact.

 

[reefkeeper2]

Here it is.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

I had a stressed mag release nematocysts en masse and kill all the fish in the aquarium.

You guys keep confusing allelopathy with nematocysts. Chemical warfare vs. physical warfare.

Interestingly enough, I've had large soft corals known to harbor allelopathic metabolites get physically attacked by Magnifica.
Chemical warfare countered with physical warfare.

 

[82ndengineer]

Would'nt there be some structure in the anemone needed to make said chemicals for allelopathic infighting. In all my reading I've never seen mention of a structure like thais in an anemone. Just a question.

 

[OrionN]

I had a stressed mag release nematocysts en masse and kill all the fish in the aquarium.

You guys keep confusing allelopathy with nematocysts. Chemical warfare vs. physical warfare.

Interestingly enough, I've had large soft corals known to harbor allelopathic metabolites get physically attacked by Magnifica.
Chemical warfare countered with physical warfare.

I am not confused between the two. There are definite close contact open warfare which we see all the time.

I do think that detrimental chemical interaction; if any, between the animals are in avert interactions due to the close confined water volume in our aquarium.
Anemone certainly cannot see another anemone. There is no eye. In the ocean, there is a gradient of the concentration of chemical, highest at the source and then drop off. Clown fish, or shark, navigate to find the source by swimming toward the direction with higher concentration. In our aquarium with the circulation and finite small volume, there will not be any gradient. Your Magnifica stumble onto the soft coral recognized that it is not self and attacked it. IMO, there is no logical reason to say that the Magnifica know that the soft coral is there, move to it and kill it.

I am not an invertebrate biologist, but I believe that nematocysts are designed to fire away at organic contact unless this is suppressed by chemicals/molecules that the anemone/coral recognized as self which block the nematocysts from firing. This does not have any neurological or nervous system control. It just trigger by chemical. If this marker is detected, don't kill it.


We see this all the time in biological systems. An example of this is the blood type. Blood type A mean that person have antigen A on the RBC, Blood type B have B antigen and AB blood type have both antigen on the RBC. Blood type O has neither antigen.
Persons with blood type AB can get any blood and not have any problem. While person with blood type O can only get transfuse with O blood type. If we give blood with antigen on it that is not recognized as self, our immune system will kill it. In case of blood transfusion the large number of cell killed cause problem with the chemical and inflation in the blood that will kill the patient

 

[reefkeeper2]

*

*


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Majchrzak
I had a stressed mag release nematocysts en masse and kill all the fish in the aquarium.

You guys keep confusing allelopathy with nematocysts. Chemical warfare vs. physical warfare.


Interestingly enough, I've had large soft corals known to harbor allelopathic metabolites get physically attacked by Magnifica.
Chemical warfare countered with physical warfare.

So your saying that a stressed anemone can expell nematocysts from it's tissues? Can you please refer me an article or source that explains this in detail. It's been a long while since I've done any reading about anemones and it seems I have some catching up to do. I learned there was only one way for a nematocyst to fire, and I never heard of the animal being able to choose to expel them into the water.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

Minh- my mag didn't STUMBLE into competitors. It ACTIVELY SOUGHT THEM OUT.
Regarding the release of nematocysts killing fishes in an aquarium- I don't know of any publications on the subject but there have been other reports of this made by aquarists- several here on RC.

I do believe Sprung / Delbeek 2 mentions the release of nematocysts is referred to as "nettling", a type of long distance physical warfare waged by anemones.

 

[OrionN]

Gary,
How does the anemone know that the coral is in that direction. Like I wrote in my last post. It cannot see, and there is no gradient of chemical concentration in our aquarium.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

there IS a gradient of concentration

 

[OrionN]

there IS a gradient of concentration

How Gary?

Let say we have 10,000 X water turn over and no water change for 6 weeks.
If you drop a drop of ink into the tank, it reaches uniform distribution in 3 mins or so. If the anemone release a chemical that reach equilibrium in 3 mins, and release it continuously, by a day or so the concentration of the chemical is so high in the aquarium in compare to the amount that the animal is released that there is no way to tell the different in concentration.

If the water is pitch black, there is no way to tell if there is a drop or two more black ink is added into the water, and where it is added

Even if you say it take 1/2 hr to reach equilibrium, you can see by logic that there is no way the animal can release enough chemical to have any meaningful gradient in the aquarium

 

[Jamie1210]

are we only talking about chemical warfare affecting anemones? It's interesting that nobody mentions chemical warfare btwn different 'nems harming coral.

IME, RBTAs and gigantea--both 'nems are fine, but my LPS do horribly, while my softies are not affected. Even different color morphs of rBTAs (w/o gig) caused LPS to recede/euphyllia's heads to pop off; however, once i'm only left w/1 type of anemone, all is well.

do ppl that have posted here mainly keep nems, so that's why they have not noticed any probs w/coral?

 

[garygb]

FWIW Ron Shimek,Ph.D., in his small book on host anemones, says that anemones can sense one another and will seek other anemones out. I think he is considered an anemone expert.

 

[OrionN]

Garygb, that is one guru that I stop listen to a long time ago.