I engage in rampant unfounded speculation

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.... i dont beleive that any exporters are treating with antibitoics either because they have something called the ocean to keep them in. The sheer water volume of the ocean make it much easier for anemones to stay healthy

I have said in the past and will say it again, we have no clue what is going on inside these anemones. We know that some antibiotics works in healing but you also must remember that the process of collection for these anemones is absolutely brutal.

.....
The Director of LA/DD is a very dedicated to the healthy and well being of the all of the animals they sell. But he can not control the stress the animals go through before or after they get them.
A agree with you regarding DFS.

Collectors are unlikely to treat their animals. They do keep them in the ocean.

For everybody downstream from the collectors, the animals are concentrated, removed from the ocean. The sheer number of animals that move through these facility is large. They will concentrate to keep the animal alive and look well for the short time that they are there.

I do think that bacterial infection is the problem with the great majority of the case in anemones, especially Gignatea and Magnifica. In situation like this, the finacial pressure for using antibiotic is enormous. I am sure that at least some business are treating these anemones with antibiotics.

Once the anemones reach the retailers, they will be there for some time before getting bought by reefers.

I think the only two place that is appropriate to treat is at the retailers and reefers. Anything upstream from retailers, treatment of anemones only result in problem for the retailers and the reefers. Most detrimental problem will be constant antibiotic in the holding tanks of exporters, distributors and wholesalers. Constant antibiotic level in these tank will result in resistant strains of bacterial and make it all that much harder for us to treat them.

Don't get me wrong. The collectiong process is very hard on these anemones. This is where the infection start. If you get skin cuts, contusions and crushed muscles and get throw into the sewers and keep there, you will die of infection too unless remove from the sewer quickly and treated with antibiotics.
 
SDguy and a few others on this thread seem to be the only ones burdened with prospective and common sense. Be damned DD our tanks are infallible and your wysiwyg photos force you to sell us sabotaged animals.
This whole thread is a nag fest and utterly ridiculous. It offered nothing, advances nothing and is slanderous to a company that is at the very least moving in a positive direction for the industry.
 
SDguy and a few others on this thread seem to be the only ones burdened with prospective and common sense.

Thank you. I just got an extensive email from Kevin on this topic. If he chooses to post it, so be it. If not, I will not. I think this thread speaks volumes, regardless.
 
Apparently long enough to have forgotten all your Statistics, and the concept of statistical significance. And for the record, I've assumed nothing (can you say the same) simply observed that with a small, uncontrolled sample size drawing any kind of conclusion IS absurd. Occam's razor suggests that the theory with the least number of assumptions is better. It may ultimately be that your speculation proves correct, though I doubt it, but in the meantime is see no reason to belive there is anything at play here beyond 'random chance'.

Thread is increasingly pointless - make a call and ask!

Well I did just that. I made a call first thing this morning.

I can confirm 100% that Divers Den is indeed treating their anemones with several different antibiotics. The employee I Spoke with did not elaborate fully on which antibiotics, treatment protocols, duration, etc.

However, I have sent two emails.
 
Hello,

I'm trying to get in contact with the head man at divers den that is over the Coral Farm. I was told Kevin Conan would be the man to speak with. This is in regards to "Anemone Treatment" at the Farm or Divers Den facility. More specifically, the treatment of S. Gigantea's & H. Magnifica's. First of all, I would like to say thank you for providing good quality animals at reasonable prices. I would also like to commend you guys for great shipping (8 bags and large water volume). The anemones arrive very healthy most of the time. I'm a member of Reef Central. I also treat and sell Anemones on the side. It's been paying bills. Here's a minor problem we're having over at RC. There's a number of us who work in the medical field including myself. I've personally noticed that several of the anemones being shipped from Divers Den haven't been doing well and end up dying. This has happened quite a bit lately with both Gig's and Mags. I can provide the documentation if you would like to see it. We don't think it's your fault. At fist I personally kinda did, but the more I thought about it, it didn't make sense for you guys to be sloppy. We believe that somewhere down the line (when the anemones are collected by the divers and placed into holding tanks/vats/etc, and before being shipped from one location to the next), that they're possibly being treated with "Low-Level" antibiotics, or the treatment is terminated too soon. This can generate MDRO's or worse if the anemones aren't properly treated. MDRO's are what we refer to in the medical field as "Multi Drug Resistant Organisms." This leads to ineffective antibiotic therapy which results in animals dying. I personally believe that they're being treated multiple different times with more than one antibiotic before coming into your possession. Anyway, none of us like to see the animals die. If you've been on the receiving end (Like I Have), and watch helplessly as your anemone gradually deteriorates and melts away, it's a horrible feeling. Not to mention the time, money, and headache put into the treatment process trying to save the animal. You guys know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm sure you've lost quite a few anemones as well. Ok moving on. I've asked your colleagues if you guys were treating the anemones. Also asked if you guys use more than one antibiotic. They confirmed that you are. They stated that depending on what's going on, multiple antibiotics are used. I'm glad you guys are treating and selling healthy animals. I would like to get a list of the antibiotics used, dosage, treatment time, and what a typical treatment regimen is like at the Farm or DD facilities. This is pivotal information that should be listed or passed on to the buyer so that we can pick up where you guys have left off. This information is vital for survival of the animals. It doesn't make any sense to exclude that information in the write up. If your doctor passes your care to another physician, he will give him full report of all the details. This includes medications, dosage, frequency, tolerance, etc. You guys list information like lighting, feeding, where the anemone is kept, and what the anemone prefers (likes to attach to a rock), etc. This information is good to know, but not the most important information needed to save the anemones from dying. Please help us by providing treatment information so that we can better access how to treat and save these beautiful anemones. This will be profitable for you and stimulate positive reviews in the future. I'm sure you guys are sick of refunding people for dead Gigantea's with $300-$400 price tags. Please e-mail back with this information and I'll do everything possible to bring you guys positive reviews and promote your business. Please be specific as possible about the list of medications, dosage, and duration of treatment. Also how you determine which antibiotic is use. Can you also give a brief rundown of what happens before they hit your facility. Like how many people put hands on them. Thanks in advance for reading this email.

Kindest Regards,
Jared Harms
 
I would have waited to confirm that till you got a response from Kevin Kohen. Many times the guy who answers the phone is not always the most reliable.
 
I would have waited to confirm that till you got a response from Kevin Kohen. Many times the guy who answers the phone is not always the most reliable.

And usually it is customer service who are authorized to do a lot but know little of the particulars. Mostly they defer to KK.
 
SDguy and a few others on this thread seem to be the only ones burdened with prospective and common sense. Be damned DD our tanks are infallible and your wysiwyg photos force you to sell us sabotaged animals.
This whole thread is a nag fest and utterly ridiculous. It offered nothing, advances nothing and is slanderous to a company that is at the very least moving in a positive direction for the industry.

Agreed.

Gigs have been dying from ALL dealers. We can't expect LADD to be any different. All of the photos -- and I think I actually did see all of them -- show me a gig that is IN THE PROCESS OF acclimating: short tentacles, overly bright color, tight folds in the oral disc, and some are even bleached. They're not fully acclimated, in which the ideal, healthy specimen would have long tentacles, brown undertone indicating a healthy zoox population, tightly closed mouth, and can hold itself upright with deep folds in the oral disc (granted, there are healthy gigs with short tentacles, loose folds, etc. but I'm talking about a general, run of the mill, healthy gig).

Yet they all sold out in minutes. My assumption is that those who purchased them thought they could treat them successfully. Those of us who have been tracking gigantea threads know that we've experienced a downtrend in the efficacy of antibiotics. Yet we still buy them. When they don't live, we blame the dealer for not giving us proper information, or withholding information. Had they told us they were treating them, would we have held back on our purchase?

While its great to know what LA DD did or didn't do to their nems, as others have mentioned, it doesn't account for the rest of the supply chain. We need to figure out a way to move forward, but this is not the right thread to do that. I'll start a new one to discuss our thoughts on what's been happening -- specifically with gigs -- where we can compare notes.
 
What a different thread this would be had the phone calls and emails occurred first. Something might come of this after all.
 
Although I believe bacterial infections are certainly at play in certain cases, I think they have become somewhat of a scapegoat if an anemone is not doing well. I think some here are too quick to jump on the antibiotic treatment as a cure-all and lose sight of the fact that gigs and mags are extremely delicate and sensitive animals that need near perfect conditions to survive.


I agree 100 percent.. These are delicate animals and I believe allot of people are keeping them that should not and well they are delicate animals and even give the most advanced issues sometimes...

I just saved a Gig that was almost 100 percent bleached and I did not treat with antibiotics.

I am go to say this there is a difference between DD/LA and LA.
DD/LA is in Rhinelander and run under the name LA but is run different. I have been to LA in Rhinelander several times.. DD holds and quarantines and medicates their live stock... I dont know if they medicate anemones though..
What Kevin does up there is totally different and unique even than other LA..

I have ordered stuff not on DD from LA other facilities before and have had issues with bad packing, things showing up dead, wrong stuff sent. But never have heard of many issues from DD.
 
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Well this person I spoke with sounded like they knew for a fact that they treat the anemones. It's not a big deal. The question is this: What antibiotics are they using, frequency of treatment, and duration.

My other question:

How many hands are the Nems going through and where do they keep them. Are they treating? How big are the vats or holding tanks.

The main thing that I would like to see changed is the lack of communication. I would like to know what's been given and for how long.
 
This is a ridiculous thread. Jared, if you "sell anemones on the side", you have no standing to criticize or call into question a commercial vendor's practices. This thread is closed, and I highly suggest you refrain from posting similar topics in the future.
 
Since this thread got locked before Kevin could reply, I'll post it for him.


DFS said:
Good Afternoon,
Peter reached out to me about this thread here on RC and thought I would take the time to respond directly.

As some of you know, Steve Krogh- Aquaculture Coral and Marine Life Facility operations manager and I, along with every single staff member here at our Rhinelander Wisconsin 20,000-gallon facility work tirelessly to bring the very best animals to market through our Divers Den section of LiveAquaria.com. What gives me the most pleasure is obtaining responsibly harvested aquatic life, conditioning the animals properly, and offering them for sale to end up thriving for many years to come in our valued customers’ aquaria.

To address the chain of custody: As some have pointed out, unfortunately in a good number of countries the harvest and care for Anemones and other invertebrates could be improved considerably. I try to source Anemones from the most responsible suppliers whenever possible so at least we are starting the process with a step in the right direction. I know of no wholesaler or importer who prophylactically runs low doses of antibiotics in their invertebrate systems. Larger importers strive to maintain stable and acceptable water parameters for the animals, but this can be incredibly challenging with the massive fluctuation in bio-load which are most often housed in very large, centralized commercial holding systems. Administering and running low doses or even therapeutic levels of antibiotic in these invert systems would be catastrophic, and would compromise most of the beneficial nitrifying bacteria needed to maintain stability. Doing so would not only be a disaster for the animals and the bottom line of the company, but would be completely irresponsible in my personal opinion, unless massive water changes are performed daily. This would be cost prohibitive for almost everyone in the business who imports large shipments from overseas suppliers.

Divers Den Protocol for Magnifica, Gigantea, and other Sensitive Anemones:
At the beginning of this year, I set up a specialized, smaller system to house our spawning pair of McCulloch’s Clownfish, a Latezonatus pair I have been working with for a few years now, and two Super Premium Bali Aquarich Picasso pairs which we have held onto for quite some time now. This system also houses the more delicate Divers Den anemones we receive from time to time, consisting primarily of Gigantea, Magnifica, Haddoni, and even Mertensii when I can get my hands on a few from the South Pacific.

Prior to introduction into this specialized system, we medicate every single Gigantea, Magnifica, Haddoni, and Mertensii in Ciprofloxacin for seven consecutive days, at a rate of 250mg/10 gallons with a 100% water change performed every morning. I personally have found this regiment to be the most effective. The medication starts immediately upon arrival into our facility following proper acclimation from overseas exporters, importers, or other suppliers we deal with here in the US. After the 7-day treatment, we house the treated anemones in this dedicated system and continue to quarantine and condition prior to offering them for sale in the Divers Den. If any anemone out of the batch is not in optimum health, we start all over again and continue with the protocol at a higher dosage. If the anemone(s) pull through, perfect, if not they are unfortunately destroyed, or perish on their own in different holding tank(s). We typically hold all of the above mentioned anemones for a minimum of 3 weeks total, oftentimes much longer as I want to only offer them if they are in optimum health.

This protocol has increased our survival rate on these very delicate anemones significantly, and I am kicking myself for not implementing it sooner. Is it perfect, NO, is it the right thing to do for our valued customers and the animals in our care YES! Obviously, other stressors can play a part in how these anemones fare long-term. From post-harvest handing, export, import, and trying to adapt to suppliers holding systems, Gigantea, Magnifica, Haddoni, and Mertensii can be doomed oftentimes regardless of what any of us do to try and help improve survival rates. Even after all of our extensive efforts, some anemones never adapt or recover from the final shipping stressor to the consumer or never adjust to the new environment in hobbyist’s aquaria. This circumstance is incredibly frustrating to me also.

DFS said:
As a dedicated hobbyist and professional who has worked in the marine ornamentals industry for over 30 years now, my goal is to see every single animal we offer in our Divers Den thrive in our valued customers aquaria. I know that is not achievable, but if one sets the bar very high, we can hope to come close and continue to make improvements each day.

Lastly, I would like to personally invite each and every one of you to make the trip to Rhinelander Wisconsin and attend one of our Drs. Foster and Smith Aquaculture Coral and Marine Life Facility open house events. We open our doors to the public several times a year so our valued customers and families can see our facility, the amazing animals we are so fortunate to house and care for, and meet and converse with our dedicated staff and myself. If interested please feel free to visit:
http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=468
 
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