Reefahholic
New member
They look too good at picture time and arrive very healthy looking.
This is why everybody is having tough times with them.
This is why everybody is having tough times with them.
I engage in rampant unfounded speculation
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starfishbricks
Member
Wouldn't be surprising. They've posted on reef central in the past so it would make sense that they are viewing the same threads we're viewing with similar interest. Probably more so because their entire business is based on selling livestock and these anemones are their 'higher priced' specimens. What may be happening is they treat the anemones with cipro/septra for their 'two week quarantine' and as soon as they get better they snap the picture, it is sold the same day, and then shipped the day after. The anemones arrive at your doorsteps extremely stressed because they just recently recovered from treatment and on top of that do not respond as well to the same antibiotics and/or have developed resistances.
Oh the fish conspiracy theories...
Oh the fish conspiracy theories...
justinky
New member
I said this last night, my gig I bought from liveaquaria non divers den is doing really good on its second day. My first mag I bought was from divers den and lasted 4 days I believe before it started melting away. My 2nd mag was non divers den and responded to treatment very fast just like my gig currently.
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Sorry, not entirely sure of the point here. Treating anemones with antibiotics certainly was pioneered here on RC by OrionN, but I recall Joe Y. doing this many years ago a the NY Aquarium. Since DD will only ship out healthy livestock, I'd not doubt that they may well be treating these animals - and they may keep them for longer than just the two weeks. Trouble is that these anemones don't ship well even when healthy, so not unexpected to see a recurrence of bacterial problems. Don't thing a single treatment would render subsequent ones ineffective however. Lack of a positive response to Cipro, for example, seems to me more likely to be a different more resistant bacterial strain. Maybe the medical professionals can comment.
justinky
New member
Divers Den treating the anemones to get them in good health is fine, but if it is as we suspect they are treating, getting them out of the danger zone and sending to the buyer. The problem with this is they technically are not fully better. I am no medical practitioner but as humans once you come off an infection your body is usually low on white blood cells which are tied into your immune system, why would anemones be much different (I dont mean they have white blood cells, just that they haven't fully recovered). That allows the same infection it just tried to rid of to evolve into a more resistant strain during shipping so once it arrives at your place you have a uphill battle.
clorox
New member
I think it is a combination of multiple factors, but most likely the most contributing one is stress induced by the multiple handling/shipping stages.
What I think is problematic is the fact that assuming they are acclimated and treated at the wholesaler's facility for a period of 2-4 weeks, they simply don't have enough time to regain strength and redevelop zooxanthellae; you just need to observe how invariably most specimens are somewhat bleached even in the better looking pictures of DD.
The moment they look 'stable' (but not necessarily fully recovered) they get shipped one more time and the cycle begins again. So, in the end it becomes more a matter of whether the specimen has sustained more or less stress than another and if it had more endurance to sustain yet an other acclimation and treatment period.
What I think is problematic is the fact that assuming they are acclimated and treated at the wholesaler's facility for a period of 2-4 weeks, they simply don't have enough time to regain strength and redevelop zooxanthellae; you just need to observe how invariably most specimens are somewhat bleached even in the better looking pictures of DD.
The moment they look 'stable' (but not necessarily fully recovered) they get shipped one more time and the cycle begins again. So, in the end it becomes more a matter of whether the specimen has sustained more or less stress than another and if it had more endurance to sustain yet an other acclimation and treatment period.
clorox
New member
We both came to the same conclusion.....
justinky
New member
Yup it just makes sense, I mean you gotta move product to make a profit. If these gigs/mags went through a long qt process I'm sure the prices would be more comparable to ibluewater as its taking up tank space.
OrionN
Moved on
I think treating the anemone to get them well is one thing. This will not cause problem for us.
On the other hand, if the wholesaler just keep anitibiotic in the holding tank regardless of infection or duration of treatment, then it is a really bad for the anemone and for us. This just select for resistant organism.
On the other hand, if the wholesaler just keep anitibiotic in the holding tank regardless of infection or duration of treatment, then it is a really bad for the anemone and for us. This just select for resistant organism.
justinky
New member
I would hope DD has enough sense to realize this is horrible practice.
starfishbricks
Member
I'm not sure if I agree that DD only ships out healthy livestock. It would be more accurate to say they usually ship out 'healthier' live stock compared to their competitors. They're forced into this because they have to post a picture of the live stock in order to sell it. A pair of clowns that I purchased a few weeks ago from DD came with a internal parasite problem that I was just recently able to cure while they were in my quarantine tank. This is after DD's 'extensive quarantine procedure'. If they were actually fully quarantined, then the fish I received wouldn't have internal parasites.
I'm not saying they don't treat at all. They are probably doing a general treatment and then doing a photo shoot as soon as the specimen show signs of improvement. The issue with this is they may not always fully complete the quarantine and recovery process. This can lead to issues down the road with antibiotic resistances. I disagree with you that 'a single treatment would render subsequent ones ineffective'. Why do you think your doctor says to take all your antibiotics even though you start to feel better after 2-3 days? Well you take the remaining 7 days in order to hopefully prevent developing a different and more resistant bacterial strain. In Minh's treatment protocol, I'm pretty sure it says to keep using cipro for 3 days after the anemone starts to look better specifically because of this.
justinky
New member
Exactly. I really hope liveaquaria takes this thread seriously if they are doing this.
But DD doesn't claim to fully quarantine and makes a specific point that all purchases, including theirs, should still be quarantined by the buyer. Not sure why this remains such an elusive concept for some people. Whether they do or do not treat anemones with antibiotics, either partly or completely, is simply speculation on top of speculation; and I'm sorry but even a cursory grasp of statistics would quickly led you to conclude that a few individuals is not likely to provide you with a significant sample size to draw any useful conclusions ... about anything. Magnifica and carpet anemones have ALWAYS been very tough to acclimate. That aquarists like OrionN were perceptive enough to investigate treatments has significantly improved survival rates, but clearly not anywhere close to 100%.
Reefahholic
New member
This thread is about anemones that have bacterial infections that have developed resistance due to inadequate antibiotic therapy.
The result:
The last 3 beautiful gigs are all dying or almost dead.
BTW... Is the other blue alive, and what about the purple?
The result:
The last 3 beautiful gigs are all dying or almost dead.
BTW... Is the other blue alive, and what about the purple?
No offense, but that's a huge assumption with no scientific fact. And your thread title says otherwise. Not trying to be a jerk here, but it basically sounds like you are saying LADD should simply go back to hoping for the best, with no meds, or you want them to fully QT your nems for you (and incur the cost to the consumer I assume). Please correct me if I am misunderstanding this.
Amoo
Member
I think what he is saying is that if they are treating them, but not enough to completely defeat the infection, they are actually doing more harm then good. There is a reason the doctor says take the full coarse of "X" medication even after you show no symptoms, the same applies here. A bacterial infection is a bacterial infection is a bacterial infection, different species yes, but still a bacterial infection.
Reefahholic
New member
Well, I find it kinda funny when I treat mutiple animals a week specifically (H. Mag) and I've been treating S. Gig too lately, and most are responding well to antibiotic therapy. Yet, LADD's animals are dying left and right. Both mag and Gig.
I don't expect anybody to treat my Nems. I treat my own the right way. What I do expect, is if the vendor is treating their Nems, they need to complete the full course of antibiotics. Otherwise the animals will die because of resistant strains of bacteria. This is known as MDRO as we refer to it in the hospital. Google it.
I also expect to know details about previous treatment protocol. I do not sell a mag or gig to anybody and expect them to guess what I've previously done with treatment. I tell them up front. The meds used...is vital information.
If your in the hospital does your doctor pass your care over to another physician without giving a full report of what's going on and what meds he's previously treated you with? Of course not, that is key information that is extremely important for your plan of care. It would be ridiculous not to report that information.
So, would it not be benificial for us to know if they're treating and if so...with what meds? I can bet you they're coming to this forum anyway watching what we're doing and learning from us.
So give us the real information needed.
[profanity]..."this anemone is maintain in a raceway that is blah blah blah...
"It's lit with our double ended metal halides"
"This anemone likes to attach to a rock"
Who cares! Give me report...proper report!!!
They're telling me the patients room number, curtain color, type of bed, etc...
Again....who cares...give me the medication details, how long have you treated this NEM? What meds did you use? How did the NEM tolerate? Is he light or flow sensitive?
LADD is not some magical company with God given power to revive Nems. They're treating and need to let their customers know the details.
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