Ich POLL!

[ocellaris123]

Another thing I can't figure out: why so many ich cases now and so little mention of Velvet? For most of my years in the hobby, Velvet was a much bigger concern than ich. I think its tougher to see & cure and kills faster, IMO & IME. You never hear of it on this forum though. I was at the best LFS within 150 miles a few weeks ago and fish in 3 tanks had velvet. They weren't on a central system and an employee got right on it. I know the owner and he said they have seen a lot of it lately, its always been a problem for them, but worse than usual now.

I also thought of the same thing. People always say that ich as wiped out their entire system in a few days, but I have never had that happen when I dealt with ich. The only time I experienced a total fish stock loss was with velvet, and the velvet exterminated all fish life within 48 hours. Velvet kills fast ime, while ich does not.

 

[steelhead77]

In the past 6 months, I think many well intentioned, but misguided fish owners have killed more fish trying to cure ich than the ich itself has. This is what's so maddeningly frustrating for those of us who have managed to battle this with no treatment and have never lost a fish to disease. If you doubt that my fish had ich, go to the first page of this thread and have a look. If any fish should have died from ich, it was him, yet he's still here over 2-1/2 years later. I agree with Mr.T that many times it is mis-diagnosed and I believe that people end up stressing the poor things to the point that they end up dying more from stress than anything.

 

[reefmusic]

I also thought of the same thing. People always say that ich as wiped out their entire system in a few days, but I have never had that happen when I dealt with ich. The only time I experienced a total fish stock loss was with velvet, and the velvet exterminated all fish life within 48 hours. Velvet kills fast ime, while ich does not.

Except (according to http://americanaquariumproducts.com/Oodinium.html) marine oodinium doesn't

the marine variety (Amyloodinium Ocellatum) does not have chloroplasts to produce nutrients (via chlorophyll and light), thus Marine Oodinium does not take on the appearance of Velvet

So if we call it velvet, people are not going to come up with THAT diagnoses, and they'll call it ich.

 

[MrTuskfish]

i'm pretty confident i know what ich looks like i've been dealing with it for over 5 years the reason i added my copperband straight to main system was because i already knew ich was present in there and plus copperbands don't do very well in quarantine especially if there in bad shape and like i mentioned before if the system is healthy and matured it will over come the ich and i'm a firm believer of garlic & selcon use it religiously everyday

Selcon is a great vitamin supplement, garlic may help appetite. Neither will cure or prevent ich.

 

[syrinx]

Misdiagnosis is to be expected- but it many cases it makes little diffrence in treatment. Where it makes a major diffrence is when people decide its just a little ich and don`t treat. Big thing is-velvet and whatnot is usually seen during the qt period, when people should be prepared to medicate fish if needed. I have seldom seen a case of ooidum crop up in a tank years after the last fish was introduced- yet its common with crypt.

 

[Gogandantess]

In the past 6 months, I think many well intentioned, but misguided fish owners have killed more fish trying to cure ich than the ich itself has. This is what's so maddeningly frustrating for those of us who have managed to battle this with no treatment and have never lost a fish to disease. If you doubt that my fish had ich, go to the first page of this thread and have a look. If any fish should have died from ich, it was him, yet he's still here over 2-1/2 years later. I agree with Mr.T that many times it is mis-diagnosed and I believe that people end up stressing the poor things to the point that they end up dying more from stress than anything.

Being lucky doesn't mean it's the best way to do things.

 

[MammothReefer]

I stopped stressing about ich years ago. If your water parameters are good, your tank is stable it's just a passing thing. I'll see a spec now and then, and when I first introduced my fish into this tank I had a huge out break.. I kept on like normal and it all passed.

Every fish in my tank had ich at one point (except my clowns) and I haven't lost a single one to it. The last fish I lost and blamed ich for was probably the first fish I had I'm I did 500 other things wrong at the time which was the true cause. There is no way I'm pulling apart a tank and setting up a QT for ICH. NO WAY. When you have a Reef tank you need to think of the health of the whole tank. I'm not going to disturb all my corals risk STN/RTN'n my sps, and stressing all my other fish for something that can be treated as simply as making sure your fish eat, and your water is clean.

 

[steelhead77]

Being lucky doesn't mean it's the best way to do things.

Whatever man. You don't know my tank or how I keep my fish. I seriously doubt luck had anything to do with it and I seriously doubt my situation is unique. But maybe I should buy a lottery ticket.

 

[steelhead77]

I stopped stressing about ich years ago. If your water parameters are good, your tank is stable it's just a passing thing. I'll see a spec now and then, and when I first introduced my fish into this tank I had a huge out break.. I kept on like normal and it all passed.

Every fish in my tank had ich at one point (except my clowns) and I haven't lost a single one to it. The last fish I lost and blamed ich for was probably the first fish I had I'm I did 500 other things wrong at the time which was the true cause. There is no way I'm pulling apart a tank and setting up a QT for ICH. NO WAY. When you have a Reef tank you need to think of the health of the whole tank. I'm not going to disturb all my corals risk STN/RTN'n my sps, and stressing all my other fish for something that can be treated as simply as making sure your fish eat, and your water is clean.

Amen, brother! My feelings exactly. Well said! Some people make WAY too much out of this.

 

[geaux xman]

man if you've never loss a fish to a disease, you have got to be one of the luckiest person in the world...

Steel, have you ever had any large angels?

 

[ocellaris123]

Except (according to http://americanaquariumproducts.com/Oodinium.html) marine oodinium doesn't

I don't see what your trying to say?

 

[reefmusic]

I don't see what your trying to say?

Just that people don't report having velvet, because it doesn't look like velvet in marine fish. That leaves them believing the fish have ich, and hence the reports saying "ich wiped out my tank"

 

[djze]

it's funny how some people in this hobby seem to know it all about other peoples tanks without physically ever checking them out they make there own assumptions without physical proof those same people are the ones claiming there tanks are run free of ich it's obvious that they must not have true valuable experience with the subject because the true experienced hobbiests are the ones that have been in this hobby now for a couple of years running a system with ich & most important keeping it under control & not letting it get the best of them

 

[gwhunter]

I beleive that ich can be present in all systems without issue as long as stress is kept to a minimum. I feel that copper, if kept at high enough levels for long enough is effective to eliminate ich completely and as long as it isn't reintroduced via contaminated equipment or new addition(both fish and corals). I've not followed qt rules in the past and ended up treating the dt in most cases since the size of the fish was too large. I have also noticed how fast the symptoms disappear with improved diet and water quality. In my reef I'd say the cleaner shrimp keep the pests at bay very well. In contrast my large fowlr seems to be an up hill battle due to the aggressive nature of the inhabitants. I feel the cleaner shrimp would work equally well in that tank but the current fish would eat the cleaners before they hit the bottom. I've tried cleaner wrasse in the past with mixed results. I notice the cleaners seem to nip at the fish and irritate them more than help. My solution was to remove all but three pieces of rock and treat the dt with cumpamine and prazi. I treated for 10 weeks and noticed there appetite decline( I began supplementing garlic and then Selcon). I now setup a 40 breeder with a hot magnum and penguin bio wheel , bare bottom with several pvc fittings. I run the copper at .05 and all new additions spend at least 8 wks in there first.

So to recap, I believe that ich is present in most systems and only rears it's ugly head when stress is high. But I believe that ich can be eliminated completely with persistant treatment. There's alot to be said for correct id of other parasites( as others have said).

Matt

 

[Philosophos]

Forgive my newbieness, but I think this poll should have "I don't know", "probably" and "probably not" as possible answers. How many of us have actually looked through a good study, with comprehension of what good controls look like, to find the 100% mortality rate of ich? How many of us know the rate of genetic mutation, and the possible difference in adaptation between wild marine ich and what may be living in a tank with any amount of adaptation to survive one method or other? How many of us even know that these are some of the questions that we need to be asking ourselves? How many of us have even answered these few questions for ourselves?

I'll be honest, I have no clue if I have ich in my tank or not. The prevalence I have heard would lead me to believe that I most probably do, but I haven't seen any yet. How many people without symptoms of ich sit around with a microscope looking for it though? How many of us even have a microscope?

If I've learned anything from the FW side of the hobby, it's fairly similar to THEDLO's post on page one. Getting rid of the problem means a sound dose of critical thinking, and an honest opinion that admits it's own ignorance, rather than applying faith to our fish tanks.

 

[syrinx]

Nail hit on head! I hoped when I saw the nick philosophos, that this would be the type of comment. This is the main point I was trying to make to the people with the "ich free tank" are going on the faith of science, rather than the absolute knowledge of what is actual status of the tank. There is no way to scientifically know if a tank is clean, only that you have done your best to minimise the risk.

 

[Sk8r]

Actually, marine scientists have spent quite a bit of time establishing the life cycle of this parasite, and determining its max survival range under certain circumstances and constraints, as reported in the sticky above. The most common reason, imho, for having ich in the tank---is user error. Certain fish sellers do their own quarantine, which, unfortunately, is often used by some hobbyists to proclaim that they have consistently not qt'ed and have not gotten ich. This is largely, imho, because someone has been doing it for them.

 

[syrinx]

Agreed- we know the life cycle under certain lab circumstances- which are not how we keep fish. There is no question that it is user error for it to be in a tank- however the chemicals we use are not 100% for reasons both known and unknown to us. The point I and I believe philos is making, is that there is no way to know for certain if a fully stocked reef tank has ich in it or not. I do know of people here that did have a fallow tank for 10 weeks- with the fish in all the regular treatments while tank was fallow- and yet now have a outbreak a few years later after losing power in the last round of storms. Point remains- thinking your tank is ich free is a leap of faith, although not as large of a leap as those that don`t QT.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Actually, marine scientists have spent quite a bit of time establishing the life cycle of this parasite, and determining its max survival range under certain circumstances and constraints, as reported in the sticky above. The most common reason, imho, for having ich in the tank---is user error. Certain fish sellers do their own quarantine, which, unfortunately, is often used by some hobbyists to proclaim that they have consistently not qt'ed and have not gotten ich. This is largely, imho, because someone has been doing it for them.

I agree. Despite warnings to use QT in every basic book ever written for SW Hobbyists; I don't think the majority of hobbyists take it seriously---until the inevitable happens. I just don't get it; a basic QT system costs less than one moderately priced fish and really isn't that much extra work. I think its as much being in a hurry to see the new fish in the DT as anything.

 

[jk1138]

I voted no, but I am thinking in terms of visible ich.