I'd like to get your feed back on why isn't there another store

[Dragonvale]

"Why isn't there another fish store or even a saltwater store in the area?"

If we look at demographics there isn't a store till you hit Eureka going North. Then you have Napa which has a store but not really and Vallejo has a store. Best closest store would be Vallejo with DC. Then if we head directly south on 101 closest would be in San Francisco and that's 6th st.

So for Sonoma County in particularly Healdsburg to Novato we have fish pro's and Caesars. We had in the last year and a half to two years two stores close, age of aquarium and jofish.

I understand what keeps these stores going is tank maintenance. I just want to concentrate on a retail perspective as far as dry goods and live stocks being sold. Is there enough hobbyists in the demographics stated above to support such a store? When I state store I'm talking about a specialized store carrying from beginner to high end items for saltwater tanks.

Would a specialized reef store survive in our area? The answers to me is "NO" as far as having enough hobbyists to sustain a store. Even the smallest store at 1,000 to 1,500 sqft like neptunes or DC which was a roll up business park setting (cheapest route for a store by the way) wouldn't survive here. Maybe some of you can prove me wrong and I invite your opinions.

For me I go to our local stores twice to three times a month. I buy corals and fish. If needed desperately dosing or testing items. Salt and large items such as fish tank and stand would be local purchases also.

 

[Reef Bass]

As far as stores to the north of Santa Rosa, in my opinion, there are not enough reefers to support one. And from what I have seen over the years with stores struggling and closing in this area, even north of SF there seems to be only enough demand to support a store or two. Petco when they opened in Ptown eventually shut their saltwater tanks down.

I am somewhat surprised that with the beauty of reef tanks and per capita income in Marin that there is not a bomb store there. Seems ripe for lots of maintenance accounts.

Having a nearby LFS is awesome. For me that was Jofish. I bought 2 tanks, fish (including my chevron), corals, CUC, shrimp, frozen and fresh foods, heaters, salt and dip. Being open both days on the weekend was important for me, as it seemed I always needed something then. Still sad about their closing.

There are couple "not so good for local retail" aspects of reefing. It is not cheap and not essential. When the economy is down, reef sales slow, which doesn't help stores make it through lean times. It involves livestock versus just dry goods. As we all know, maintaining a water system with livestock in good condition free of diseases with appropriate lighting is challenging and time and resource consuming. And any new shipment can potentially introduce disease capable of rendering existing inventory unsalable. On the dry goods side, competition from online retailers is significant.

"It's hard out there for a " local reef store.

 

[woodnaquanut]

North of Sonoma Co. is easy. No people! Or at least not enough people.

Marin is the mystery for me. I've been told Marin is a service area only. Not many of the affluent manage their own tanks. It might be that and the high expense of storefront property.

I've gotten the impression Ceasar's is big in the service trade in Marin.

JoFish never struck me as a real retail store. Seemed more like the warehouse for a service business. Perhaps I'm wrong about this as I only went there a few times. They always seemed to have very limited stock.

Age of A? Simple lack of sufficient funding.

Every time I talk to Robert (Neptune) I try to convince him to open a store up here. So far he hasn't bought into my insanity!

 

[northbay-reefer]

The other "closed" stores were fine and the locations were not ideal but what hurt them were:

Lack of Walk ins because of bad locations (stores like Neptune corrected that through marketing and eye candies like pretty corals and pretty reef tanks set up) people will drive for miles to seek them out(I was one of them)

The frag tanks were dirty, full of algae and have poor lighting. They didn't really show case the corals and fishes correctly. It's much better to have one beautiful, clean, awesome frag tank rather than a bunch of dirty tanks. There are time I just want to go to the LFS just to look because I want to see the beautiful fishes and corals. Jofish and Age of A was not on my list because they have nothing pretty to look at.

They also lack quality products (pretty coral frags), lack customers service and marketing. They didn't know how to network and didn't know how to work with the customers to generate word of mouth.

The reef club, fresh water fish club, koi club ect. in this area will also have to get bigger so promote and support the clubs and they will help support your store some.

Tank maintenance/set up will help you offset the rents so you will need that.

The Economy will also dictate how well it will do but if you do it right it will survive.

Just my 2 cents

 

[bluecoyote79]

I feel your frustration, as I've watched all the stores leave SF. All we're left with is 6th Ave Aquarium, which is only good for fish and even then it's sort of sketchy. There's one left in San Mateo, but after seeing their tanks a few times I don't feel comfortable buying from them. If I want to go to a LFS I have to drive to Hayward, Fremont, or San Jose as those are the closest ones left.

In my dreams, I'd love to see a big online retailer like a Live Aquaria open in the area. It'd be awesome to have that level of selection and just pick it up in person.

 

[1kwksvt]

IMHO I think we need something like what you are talking about dragonvale but I to think it would have a hard time surviving. Ceasers does good because they have no competition. They can charge a higher price because of that. I think fish pros has the potential of being a great store but tthey are lacking in so many areas. There are a lot of stores in the area of neptunes so they have to be competitive which is great for the consumer but up here it the complete opposite.

For another store to survive up here we need someone with a great business background and very good knowledge of this Hobby hard to come by in this imo

 

[swk]

I don't think the soco market could support such a niche as a saltwater only, or even a fresh/salt/reef type store. Or at least not another one. To succeed in this market I believe that you need to focus on a wide customer base, and just have a "pet store". Now in that store you could have a kick *** reef section, but your chances are better to succeed long tem if you sell items for cats and dogs, birds, herps etc.

As far as what would sell, I would just accept the fact that people are gonna buy gear online. So unless you're willing to match internet pricing, within reason, I wouldnt even bother selling new equipment. What people WILL buy is emergency type items, like heaters, bulbs, impellers, meds, common parts that break, etc. Aside from that, we all know livestock is a necessary risk that stores must carry.

 

[Dragonvale]

Sometimes I wonder if we truly know how many reefers are there in this county. For example: Grant's tank was one of the nicest tanks in the club. He didn't join the club what 2-3 years ago but he's been reefing out here for a long time. Also I see so many individuals all the time when I go into fish pros or even caesars buying fish or coral. Sometimes I want to ask them about their tank and lighting before they bought that SPS colony but that's none of my business. LOL

 

[woodnaquanut]

As far as what would sell, I would just accept the fact that people are gonna buy gear online. So unless you're willing to match internet pricing, within reason, I wouldnt even bother selling new equipment. What people WILL buy is emergency type items, like heaters, bulbs, impellers, meds, common parts that break, etc. Aside from that, we all know livestock is a necessary risk that stores must carry.

I heard 'somewhere' that livestock is a lost leader for most stores. They make their money on everything else.

Losses in livestock, expense of upkeep, etc. have to make the live side tight for profits.

 

[jalisco]

I think a better niche would be for us to help someone get their retail license and order us stuff at a fraction above cost. Then take us one at a time down to the fish wholesalers so we can cherry pick for our own tanks.
I'm get warm and fuzzy just thinking about it.

 

[swk]

I'd like to get your feed back on why isn't there another store

I heard 'somewhere' that livestock is a lost leader for most stores. They make their money on everything else.



Losses in livestock, expense of upkeep, etc. have to make the live side tight for profits.

I think this is the case in some, but not all aspects of retail animal sales. For reptiles this is not true as the loss is very minimal, same with birds. Fish yes and no as well as corals yes and no.

I would think that of you are growing and fragging things in house then you stand a much better chance of staying in the black. If you're simply flipping maricultured pieces, then I would be surprised to make a real profit off this type of market.

Now, being so involved with breeding African cichlids, many of them wild caught, I do have many people that import fish that I would consider to be friends. I can assure you, that there is real profit made at least in this market. Tropheus from lake tanganyika are brought in the country in boxes of 30 (usually) sexed as 1.2 m to f. A box from an exporter in Africa, after freight and customs will typically cost someone stateside, around 10-15 a fish. The market value on the retail end varies from 28-75 ea. granted there are loses and whatnot, but the money is there.

The real scam is when a new varient is brought to the states for the first 6 months to a year. For instance the petrochromis collected at m'toto were selling for 500 bucks, more or less each. The petrochromis Moshi collected at mabilibili was selling for 150 bucks ea. here's the kicker - both fish were the same price from the exporter at roughly 80 dollars each. The only difference being that one fish was well established in the states, while the other hadn't seen the country in 7 years or so.

Anyways, just a different take on what is commonly referred to as a loss leader.

 

[woodnaquanut]

A couple of years ago BAR had Bob Fenner as a speaker. He has done lots of work as a consultant setting up export operations in the coral triangle. IIRC, he said the exporter could make a profit if they sold a fish for $2 and most of the $$ added from there to retail was shipping. If collection was not near an international airport the expense of shipping across the island killed the profit. Seems like pretty small margins to me.

Sean, I agree the losses in corals and herps would not be anywhere near that of fish. I can't remember seeing a retail store that didn't have fish. It brings traffic into the store in a way corals don't.

The livestock, it seems to me, is where most of the overhead is. For corals, lighting, heat and water quality. For fish feeding and heat. Lots of labor on the live side of a shop too.

I'm also not sure a store fragging their own stock would be profitable. Just how many frags can be made per year from a coral? Can all those be sold? Could the store sell more if they had them?

The other issue I see is keeping a large selection for sale. Most retail stores would not have the space to raise all the stock needed.

I have noticed the two stores here mostly have colonies available. In the east/south bay they mostly have frags. Different market, different customers? If you are really a 'front' for a maintenance business, seems like colonies are the way to go!

 

[Reef Bass]

To me, a blend of colonies and frags seems desirable. Those with lower budgets will want the price break of frags. Those with skills can be confident their new frag will soon be a colony. And those with larger budgets or wanting more immediate gratification can pony up for the colony.

I can conceive of a properly maintained / not too frequently or heavily fragged colony being the source of many frags over time.

My limited understanding is that fish are the next profit item following maintenance.

In my hypothetical store, I'd have a bodacious display tank of colonies that were not for sale because they were mother colonies for frags. I would also have tanks of colonies for sale, and frag tanks with frags for sale.

IMHO, the store needs a "demo tank" showing what is possible and isn't subjected to constant livestock turnover and hence potential pest introduction. Plus it serves to demonstrate someone at the store has a clue and can walk the talk.

Ideally, there would be at least 3 separate water systems - the demo tank, items for sale tanks, and qt tank(s) for incoming stock.

 

[zeroinverse]

My take is
1) people order online because often more convenient with our work schedules (especially people making good money to support the expensive hobby).

2) frags can be gotten through reef club members or from craigslist sellers (so beginners have another outlet once they figure it out).

3) this means LFS get first coral sale, no repeat purchase unless there is eye candy, they may get initial tank sales and/or cheap livestock sales, and maybe salt buckets or RODI water.

And often people can buy salt through online also if they buy enough to get free shipping.

Most of time, cleanup crew is also bought online since you can "buy in bulk".

So I think the LFS is a tough business.

I would think a garage business would work but requires space and really more done as a "community service" than to make a profit.

And definitely "growout frags" would work but you would need so much space to culture such a wide variety, it would not be practical.

And at that point, if you get from local reefers, then your "garage shop" becomes a barter system. Which is basically what a reef club does (ie WCR).

 

[woodnaquanut]

There used to be someone in Windsor with a garage business. He might even post here! (if you do, please identify yourself and are you still in business?)

IIRC, there were restrictions on how many customers he could have at any one time. Being zoned for residential there are limits.

Ken your hypothetical store sounds great. When is the grand opening?

Both of our LFSs have display tanks. Just like our tanks they go thru phases. When last I looked the SR store tank needed work and the RP store's tank was looking real good.

Have any of you been to Aqua Forest Aquarium, on Fillmore in SF? A VERY small store (all FW) but they have 6-10 beautiful display tanks. Real eye candy to hook you into shopping there!

The complete opposite of AFA is Ocean Aquarium on Cedar St in SF. It's in an awful alley. Very sketchy location. The store looks like a pit but the fish and plants are fantastic. The owner will refuse to sell to people he doesn't think can keep the fish alive. There are no display tanks.

Sorry for the ramble. Coffee kicking in!

 

[jalisco]

Your ramblings are better than most threads.