Illegal Corals

[ReeferAl]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6444051#post6444051 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
But, everything in your tank could be claimed as a 'hitchhiker' and its not as if you get documented proof of hitchhikers with the rock.

I have not bought any of the Tampa Bay Saltwater or similar live rock. It is my understanding though that it is different in structure from rock taken from the ocean. I have heard that this was a requirement so that it could be distinguished from natural live rock so that it could not be used as a way of "laundering" illegal live rock.

If I were buying TBS live rock I would save any receipts from the purchases (I tend to do that anyway) and if some stony corals turned up on the rock I would photographically document them ASAP with subsequent growth photos as well. If I were to subsequently frag any such corals I would document the frag process photographically as well. Copies of such documents could be provided to anyone receiving frags. Does this all sound like a PITA? Yes, but doing anything less would run the risk of them being declared illegal and confiscated, or worse. Considering that legal carribean corals are quite a rarity, anyone who managed to acquire and frag them could undoubtedly recoup the costs involved in documenting correctly the legal status of the coral frags.

Allen

 

[dickie52]

It's the same old poop.....

There are hundreds of laws on the books, but some of them just can't be inforced...

When is the last time the police came into anyones house and checked their tanks?????

Anyone???

 

[MiddletonMark]

Perhaps checking with the authorities would give a better perspective on that than asking a bunch of reef hobbyists.

Esp given anyone in this hobby who got `busted' would not likely be here.

 

[hahnmeister]

So that means that everyone with ricordea florida polyps in their tanks better have legal proof? lol.

TBS rock comes from a mine, and altough it looks like white baserock when it begins, it ends up covered with critters and corals.

http://www.tbsaltwater.com/

They even have a long video at the bottom of the page...cool stuff.

 

[tangwang]

Having a brain or star coral, or cup corals or something along those lines is pretty common, but I doubt you are going to see a Cervicornus or candellabra Sea Fans growing on TBS rock... For one thing, that stuff is cultured in the Gulf. Even the "Keys" rock is aquacultured on the Gulf side of the islands, and the marine life is COMPLETELY different on the Atlantic side.... No acros.....

 

[BeanAnimal]

I think most of you are missing a key point here.

Firstly, this is a FLORIDA statute, and only enforcable there (other states may have similar laws). Secondly, no matter what the statute says about "proof", the burden of proof is still upon the state to PROVE that you did something illegal. Federal law requires this to be the case.

If you read the statute there are many loopholes or unenforcable circumstances. In other words, the state would have a hard time proving that your coral was illegal. A 2-bit lawyer defending you against an activist judge would be the only way you would be convicted... that is what apeals are for.

The statute says nothing about grandfathered or other legally collected corals either allowing or forbidding them. The law does not require research samples to be disposed of any any special way, nor does it prohibit their donation to the private sector. The intention of the statute is clearly to provide legal means to prosecute those who harvest such corals for profit, and those who damage such corals with malace or ignorance.

Lets look at a few other facets of life. You may own an unregistered hand gun, if it was purchased before such requirements. You can not own cocaine if it was purchased after it was made illegal. You can't look crosseyed at a bald eagle or you will be fined. If you look at the laws in any of these casese, this is spelled out. When people write statues, they choose the words carefully.

It would be very simple for the statutes authors to say "shall not posess said corals under any circumstances except for those listed in subsection...." or "shall not posess said corals, no matter their method, date, location or reason for collection"

In other words this thread contains 3 pages of well intentioned debate that shows an utter lack of understanding about our legal system. Read a few CFRs one time and you will be enlightened about the meaning of words and how they translate into enforcable law. Any time something is left vague, it was meant to be. Anytime something is vague, it is beatable in court.

As far as the ethics of owning such corals, that is another story and one that could be argued until the end of time.

Bean

 

[dickie52]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6444176#post6444176 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dickie52
It's the same old poop.....

There are hundreds of laws on the books, but some of them just can't be inforced...

When is the last time the police came into anyones house and checked their tanks?????

Anyone???

Like I said......

 

[ReeferAl]

Thank you BeanAnimal for adding your legal expertise, as you are obviously an attorney, given the authority and finality you have given to the discussion. There is clearly nothing left to say.

 

[just dave]

You can't look crosseyed at a bald eagle or you will be fined.

So I guess I can't ever look at a Bald Eagle as I have strabismus
(crosseyed.)

 

[BeanAnimal]

ReeferAl thats the joke, you don't need an attorney to understand the law. Of course you can hire one to twist into anything you wish. You can make this as complicated as you see fit, in the end the basic wording is such that there are a ton of loopholes and ambiguous statements in the statute. These could be easily clarified with a few simple words THAT ARE NOT THERE.

In any case, this is pointless and has no bearing on my life in any shape or form. I think I will go play with my lawn darts now.


Bean

 

[Anemone]

Relax folks. You won't "settle" any issue of law on this (or any other) reef bulleting board.

Try and participate more as if this is a discussion over a couple of beers, rather than a shouting match with "the enemy" at a sporting event. Okay? Thanks!

Kevin

 

[electrokate]

The bulk of this argument might miss the point of the law. What motivation did those behind the law have? Protect fisheries, protect tourism... what from? Yes aquarists were breaking off tank size colonies for their aquariums and selling some on the side, but that trade is small potatoes. What else would result in collection of coral? Well, there is the curio trade for tourist seashell shops, that is huge. They like big colonies too. There is development and the construction of artificial building sites by building up and extending shorelines. But I read somewhere that the biggest use of coral was for building and construction. The coral would be harvested and crushed then bleached in the sun. Much would end up in driveways, and some also was used in concrete. I don't know the specifics. But the amount of coral it took to cover miles and miles of suburban driveways is pretty impressive. As I recall this motivated the protections, because construction was only expected to increase in Florida. Some people apparently also like to make a fence out of staghorn and keep extremely large colonies in the yard like people around the Pacific NW keep whale bones or driftwood for decor.
Kate

 

[wentreefgirl]

Yikes and sad is all I have to say.

 

[ReeferAl]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6452395#post6452395 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
In any case, this is pointless and has no bearing on my life in any shape or form. I think I will go play with my lawn darts now.

Bean

Have fun.

 

[barryhc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6438213#post6438213 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Weatherman
Take a look at the last sentence of subsection (1), above.

Check-out section A of subsection 2, which specificly relates to the last sentence in subsection 1.

Pretty clear. > barryhc

 

[ReeferAl]

Ok, what do I see as the whole point of this discussion? I think there are a few points:

1. All stony corals and gorgonians from Florida and some surrounding waters are illegal to take except under very limited conditions. These include under a permit for research purposes or as hitchikers on legally harvested cultured live rock.
2. Other corals may be illegal to import based on CITES.
3. State laws related to Florida waters MAY only be enforcible in Florida (unless there are reciprocity agreements or similar laws in other states or unless there are US interstate transport laws that could be violated in transporting the corals across state lines).
4. The laws I believe are sufficiently clear for anyone obtaining a coral on TBS live rock for instance (it is ok) and for anyone taking corals while snorkling or diving in the keys (it's illegal).
5. There is certainly a gray area in any law. For anyone wishing to "see what they can get away with", consultation with a lawyer would be advisable.
6. The risk of being caught if you take a few corals illegally may not be high, but the consequences could be substantial. Additionally, IMO, it is very bad for our hobby to in any way promote the taking of corals illegally, whether the impact of doing so is negligible or not.
7. Finally, for most of us who do not intend to keep TBS live rock nor buy or otherwise obtain any illegal corals, the whole discussion really has little purpose.
   [/list=1]
   
   Having expressed the extent of my opinion on the matter, and having spent way too much time already discussing this, I will follow my final point above and leave the discussion.
   Allen

 

[KDodds]

Well said, Al, especially 6&7, my points all along. I'm with you, meet you at the pub.

 

[liverock]

FYI

FYI

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6446893#post6446893 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tangwang
Having a brain or star coral, or cup corals or something along those lines is pretty common, but I doubt you are going to see a Cervicornus or candellabra Sea Fans growing on TBS rock... For one thing, that stuff is cultured in the Gulf. Even the "Keys" rock is aquacultured on the Gulf side of the islands, and the marine life is COMPLETELY different on the Atlantic side.... No acros.....

FYI

Our Keys rock is cultured in the Atlantic ocean, just behind Davis Reef in Taverner Fl, oceanside.

There is only one site gulfside in the Keys I know of and that is Dynasty Marines site......

TBS

 

[DanConnor]

I can't resist posting a couple of opinions about this.

First, I think it's perfectly reasonable for people to want to know what is legal and what isn't.

Second, I find it interesting that people can make this stand about the morality of collecting caribbean corals while not thinking twice about corals taken from the pacific. Out of sight out of mind perhaps?

I'm no expert on the legality of caribbean corals, but a couple thoughts:

There are many countries in the caribbean, and I'm sure they all have their own laws regarding collecting. Therefore, I think the reason most of these stony corals are illegal is because of CITIES. As I said, I'm no expert, but doesn't CITIES just regulate the transporting of species between countries. And so, if you had a caribbean coral that had been in the US, fragged for many generations... what law would be broken exactly?

Just as an example, Azureus dart frogs have a tiny population in the wild and cannot be imported. However there is a large captive bred population in the US based on imports from a long time ago, and that is perfectly legal.

 

[smleee]

To the original poster: good quesiton. I think you have your answer.

TOO FUNNY. This whole post sums up why the law is written that way - so all you guys can argue about this and that and leave it up to a judge to decide the outcome.

eee