is ich alays present in saltwater fish tank?

[HighlandReefer]

Most microbes will die according to the article in 20 minutes when the dilution factor is correct. Bleach will brake down in 24 hrs. I would think adding the proper amount of bleach for the volume of water you have and letting it set for 24 hrs and then repeat the proccess would be more than enough. I would recommed using a product to remove the chlorine from your LFS to make sure you get all the chlorine out after treatment.

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"Chlorine bleach is another accepted liquid sterilizing agent. Household bleach consists of 5.25% sodium hypochlorite. It is usually diluted to 1/10 immediately before use; however to kill Mycobacterium tuberculosis it should be diluted only 1/5, and 1/2.5 (1 part bleach and 1.5 parts water) to inactivate prions. The dilution factor must take into account the volume of any liquid waste that it is being used to sterilize.[10] Bleach will kill many organisms immediately, but for full sterilization it should be allowed to react for 20 minutes. Bleach will kill many, but not all spores. It is highly corrosive and may corrode even stainless steel surgical instruments. Bleach decomposes over time when exposed to air, so fresh solutions should be made daily. [11]"

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Thanks Bill for the reply.

 

[ctenophors rule]

ok thanks highland, i was confuse by that part...

well three days of chlorine treatment later, i will start removing it...ad i willseed thr tank with sand...

thanks everyone for th help, and now i have a proper understanding of ich.

take care....tommy

 

[tmz]

I think the question is how resitant the cysts casings will be. The freee I know that 3 hours+ of freshwater without chliorine will pentrate them and kill the encysted parasite.

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15427772#post15427772 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billsreef
Parasites in general are all too common in wild caught fish. Not just Crypt either. There are even pests that plague corals, such as nudi's, flatworms and red bugs. Really makes sense to QT everything that goes into the display tank when you think about it.

Ich is rather different due to its lifecycle. Critical are that first, it voluntarily leaves the host, a very strigent form of birth control (99.9% of children die in the ocean) second, it multiplies in great numbers all at once. Thus, the confinement of the tank completely changed this ecological factor. Ich is not a disease in the ocean. All parasites that has this chacracteristics should be eradicated if possible, if not, the whole hobby will have far fewer successful followers.

I do not eradicate pathogenic bacteria, it is impossible. Pathogenic bacteria do not voluntarily leave the host, so in terms of ecology fish must have reliable resistance against it even in the ocean. Otherwise, there would be far fewer fish in the ocean.

In the ocean, fish does not need much or improved resistance against ich. It is not surprising that resistance against ich is not reliable in the confinement of the tank. Eradication is the only reliable means against ich in the long run.

 

[greenbean36191]

I have seen varying numbers on the amount of fish infected with crypto when harvested. I think one set of data was 15% overall but 30% of tangs.... I can't remember where I read that.

Well it varies considerably depending on species obviously, but it's been documented in 1/3- 3/4 of fish (not ornamentals) in an area. Of course, most of these cases were subclinical. Ironically, the infection rate is significantly higher in areas with reduced salinity, yet thousands of hobbyists still run their tanks at reduced salinities based on the downright bad assumption that slower salinities will help with diseases somehow.

 

[goldmaniac]

I've been working with an ich-free tank for a year now. I made it ich-free by removing all fish for a 3-month period.

no chlorine necessary.

I'm now QT'ing all fish with hypo (1.009-1.010) for a 4-5 week period. From everything I've read, this will ensure I only add ich-free fish back into the display tank.

I believe it is futile, however, as I expect to eventually make a mistake and put a frag or piece of live rock or new macroalgae that's wet with water from another tank that contains ich, and BAM! it's introduced again.

And from all the effort I'm putting into QT'ing all fishfor 6 weeks at a time, I say...

"a half-pound of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

it's much more effort than just an ounce of prevention.

 

[ctenophors rule]

what about doing the tank to tank method?

if you put a fish in a ten gallon, for example, and leave it in their for one day, then swap it into a new ten gallon, and completely drain and clean the orriginal, you do this for 7-10 days..and you have an iuch free fish...right? the ich cyst takes 2-10 days to hatch, so their u go! the ich falls off in the 7-10 day period, whether it is present or not. shazam, now we are less than an ounce.

or is their something wrong with this?

 

[tmz]

The tank transfer method requires 4 transfers ,one every 3 days to insure all the parasites have a chance to leave the fish and no cysts get time to decyst and reinfect. Each time a tank is vacated , it must be drained and cleaned and thorougly dried or refilled with fresh water and left to soak for at least 3 hours to insure any cysts in it are destroyed.

 

[goldmaniac]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15469288#post15469288 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
The tank transfer method requires 4 transfers ,one every 3 days to insure all the parasites have a chance to leave the fish and no cysts get time to decyst and reinfect. Each time a tank is vacated , it must be drained and cleaned and thorougly dried or refilled with fresh water and left to soak for at least 3 hours to insure any cysts in it are destroyed.

+1

I find that emptying the QT tanks and simply filling with fresh water and letting it sit overnight is much more reliable than trying to dry out the tank completely.

That said, I think i mortally injured a hippo tang during capture when I tried the Transfer Method. I'm just no good at capture; maybe the Hippos are particularly wilya and gave me extra trouble.

I've learned to be patient and hypo new arrivals.

 

[tylorarm]

"It is absent in my tank. I have not had a single case of ich in more than 20 years."

Wooden_reefer, what's your procedures that have created the success you describe above? I've failed twice now, once by skipping my usual QT for an expensive fish that turned out infected. And once where i QT'd everything, zero spots for more than a year from any new additions then huge outbreak after a move. I assume the last outbreak was either the results of a non-fish introduction or just i had carriers for all that time that were handling the infection without showing symptoms. I'm leaving tank fallow for 2+ months this time and all new entrants (including surviving fish) will go through 3 wks cupramine & 1 wk prazipro. However, I'd like to hear about your successful technique, as can't do much better than 20+ years ich free.

 

[evsalty]

QT'ing without the use of hypo or chemicals/copper is just observation and the fish can still be hosts even if there is nothing visible.

 

[tylorarm]

Exactly why i've lost the faith in QT without treatment.

 

[evsalty]

Chemicals today help keep parasites away! LOL

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15476968#post15476968 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tylorarm
"It is absent in my tank. I have not had a single case of ich in more than 20 years."

Wooden_reefer, what's your procedures that have created the success you describe above? I've failed twice now, once by skipping my usual QT for an expensive fish that turned out infected. And once where i QT'd everything, zero spots for more than a year from any new additions then huge outbreak after a move. I assume the last outbreak was either the results of a non-fish introduction or just i had carriers for all that time that were handling the infection without showing symptoms. I'm leaving tank fallow for 2+ months this time and all new entrants (including surviving fish) will go through 3 wks cupramine & 1 wk prazipro. However, I'd like to hear about your successful technique, as can't do much better than 20+ years ich free.

For most of the years I used Cu. I use straight Copper sulfate hydrate. Now I start with Cu and slowly reach hypo.

Some say you must maintain Cu level but I don't. I don't disagree as it makes sense. For me, however, I pulse it to 0.3ppm and then just expect it to precipitate to 0.1 and so and I pulse again, likely every three days. This method is very easy so I tend to do it for a long time and without any reluctance. Little water change, few tests, just time. I quarantine against ich for 8-12 weeks depending on the temp and if the fish showed ich to start with.

I always cycle the filter medium intended for QT very very well. There is never any ammonia in QT.

Plus I never use liverock as the filter medium in QT. I use crushed oyster shell wrapped in a well-stretched out nylon panty hose. These are my nitrification balls, about size of large orange or small grapefruit. I either drip water over them or place them in a large HOT power box filter.

 

[tylorarm]

That's a very long QT but great results, thanks for sharing.

 

[HighlandReef]

agreed...good thread

 

[wooden_reefer]

It all works together.

I have make the point several times of never using the gradual live fish method to cycle. If you still use this silly method you are helpless.

Having a high nitrification capacity allows me to quarantine many fish all at once. As many as I care to, can find or plan to etc.


This also eases compatibility problem as all are newcomers. Less fighting means fewer wounds, fewer chances for external bacterial infection. I always also use UV against external bacterial infection for the duration of eradicating ich.

Beginners who still ask,"what are those salt dots" better not quarantine many fish at once, however. There is always learning and tuition, but for those who are well-versed with disease treatment medication and eqipment, there is no reason to buy and quarantine fish one or two at a time. Put all or most of your eggs in one basket and then watch it very well, do a thorough job, and get it over with.

 

[ctenophors rule]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15477211#post15477211 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by evsalty
QT'ing without the use of hypo or chemicals/copper is just observation and the fish can still be hosts even if there is nothing visible.

why doesn't the tank to tank method mentioned above work for you?

 

[evsalty]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15481235#post15481235 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ctenophors rule
why doesn't the tank to tank method mentioned above work for you?

I never said anything about the tank transfer method. I also have never used it before so this is merely speculation but from what I gather in order for the tank to tank method to work you would be doing this in a hypo enviroment or else what would cause the cysts to fall off/release. Just putting a fish in another tank that is set up to match your DT is not going to promote the release of the cyst. Also ICH does not just live on the outer body surfaces of the fish so just because you can not see it does not mean that it is not present. It will live in the mucous membrains and the gills.

 

[jener8tionx]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15483331#post15483331 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by evsalty
I never said anything about the tank transfer method. I also have never used it before so this is merely speculation but from what I gather in order for the tank to tank method to work you would be doing this in a hypo enviroment or else what would cause the cysts to fall off/release. Just putting a fish in another tank that is set up to match your DT is not going to promote the release of the cyst. Also ICH does not just live on the outer body surfaces of the fish so just because you can not see it does not mean that it is not present. It will live in the mucous membrains and the gills.

I disagree. In theory the tank transfer method is rock solid. You are changing tanks every 3 days or so and ich will eventually leave the host. When it does, the fish will not be in that tank/water long enough for ich to find its way back to a host fish as the fish is removed. Unless you are saying that the ich never leaves the fish at any part of its life cycle or that it will reattach in a 3 day window, I don't see your point.