is ich alays present in saltwater fish tank?

[evsalty]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15483573#post15483573 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jener8tionx
I disagree. In theory the tank transfer method is rock solid. You are changing tanks every 3 days or so and ich will eventually leave the host. When it does, the fish will not be in that tank/water long enough for ich to find its way back to a host fish as the fish is removed. Unless you are saying that the ich never leaves the fish at any part of its life cycle or that it will reattach in a 3 day window, I don't see your point.

Once again I never said it doesn't work and I DID say that I have never used it. Prior to the above post I never ever even metion the tank transfer method so I do not know why I have even been questioned about it in the first place. So in short I never said it will or won't work but I do know that the initial topc of this thread was "is ich always present". So with that in mind if you find that you have an infected fish in the tank then just tank transfer is not going to remove it from the DT. It may help the one fish you put thru it but what about the rest in your DT.

My origionaly statement that somehow got me involved in the tank transfer method was saying that you either prevent it first via hypo or chemicals or you are just observing the fish and do not no for sure that there is no ich present on your fish.

 

[tmz]

I have lost considerable confidence in hypo even at1.009 for 6 weeks. There are many reports of resistant strains. On several occasions ich has persisted through it in my experience.The long qt confinement in low salinity may also be harmful, since the kidneys and other organs are largely inactive when the external salinity approaches the fish's internal salinity(1.008). Bound copper treatments such as Cupramine are my preference but I'm tending toward tank transfer. Certainly more natural but labor intensive.

 

[JHemdal]

Tom,

Add to that the fact that Uronema is much more prevalent during hyposalinity, and those are two really good reasons not to employ this method. The third reason, as you mention is that 1.009 is too close to the lethal lower limit for some fish - all it takes is a slightly out-of-calibration S.G. meter and you've killed some fish.

However, I am also not a proponent for the tank transfer method - the theory is good, but the application is flawed. First, no matter how much we all nag people, not enough of them quarantine their fish - usually citing lack of time and resources. The tank transfer method just makes that more likely of an issue.
It also makes the assumption that all of the Cryptocaryon organisms are on the same schedule, when in reality, once an infection gets going, you'll find all stages at all times. I've isolated tomites from fish mucus, so the idea that they are ALL shed into the water isn't true. I rank the tank transfer method there with a GOOD UV system, it can help in minor/early outbreaks, but it won't cure an acute infection.

I use organically bound copper for my routine quarantine, ionic copper for active infections and have recently been getting back into using Chloroquine (after a 30 year hiatus).


Jay

 

[tmz]

Well, I would also note hypo is not effective against amyloodinium ocellatum (velvet) since this dinoflagellate lives across a range of salinities including brackish water. Copper works on velvet.

Neither copper nor hypo are useful in treating flukes, uronema or booklynella which are pretty common.Prazi pro works on flukes but I still use formalin for the other two.

As for tank transfer ,I don't think parasites will stay in/on a fish for 12 days.Movement through 4 parasite free tanks should isolate them all while they are off the fish and leave them behind.If this were not the case copper treatments which target free swimming parasites would need to be of much longer duration than the current 14 day regimen. Unlike even a large uv which is largely ineffective since it only targets the free swimming phase and only parssites passing through it , tank transfer leaves all the encysted parasites and free swimmers behind.

Copper has worked for me for ich and vlevet. Formalin works on the skin based diseases pretty well. Prazi pro helps .

Currently I use prazi pro prophylactically during the first 10 days of observation. In addition to it's lethal effect on flukes, it may also help with internal parasites such as intesnstinal worms.


Depending on the species and any symptoms noted during this 10 days ; it's on to copper ,formalin , tank transfer or another 3 weeks of quarantine without treatment.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Tank transfer method is too much work and also very stressful to many fish.

Many fish will not eat until 48 hours after being handled.

BTW, I have not used a net to catch fish for over 25 years. I always use the large clear plastic bag method, and move slowly.

 

[tmz]

It is labor intensive but I think tank transfer is potentially less stressful than copper treatment if gentle capture is done. It is not very hard to capture a fish when the water level is low and there are no hiding places in the tank.
I would not dump any water from tank to tank if you use a cup or plastic bag. My fish eat right away. Shipped fish and those introduced into a tank with other fish may take a while but not when simply and gently transferred to a tank with matched water in my experience.

 

[tylorarm]

I think whether or not it works the tank transfer method is heroic but too much work for me. How about:

30 minute formalin bath 1ml to 1 gal with aeration upon arrival
Put in QT until eating, then 3wks cupramine at directed level
Subsequently 5 day prazi then repeat as directed
This should kill ich, velvet, flukes and perhaps internal parasites. Hopefully Brook should either get killed by formalin dip, or if it makes it past that then should show itself during rest of QT period at which time it can be dealt with with series of formalin baths. Any snails or corals and such seperate QT without fish for a 6 wk period should do the trick. Then, assuming some fish surive the QT, fish parasite (ich, velvent, brook) free tank?

 

[tylorarm]

Oh, another question. Can fish be Brook carriers like fish appear to be able to be non-symptomatic carriers of ich?

 

[tmz]

Don't know wether brooklynella can be carried in undetected.

Your protocol should work well.
Why 3 weeks of cupramine instead of two? I've used 40 min formalin baths numerous times without ill effect .
I've used Formalin 3 which is a 3% solution of formaldahyde at 10ml per gallon in a bucket with a powerhead . I beleive most other formalin products are 37% formaldahyde. So about .8 ml per gallon should do.

 

[ctenophors rule]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15483331#post15483331 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by evsalty
I never said anything about the tank transfer method. I also have never used it before so this is merely speculation but from what I gather in order for the tank to tank method to work you would be doing this in a hypo enviroment or else what would cause the cysts to fall off/release. Just putting a fish in another tank that is set up to match your DT is not going to promote the release of the cyst. Also ICH does not just live on the outer body surfaces of the fish so just because you can not see it does not mean that it is not present. It will live in the mucous membrains and the gills.

cyst don't stay on a fish indefinately!

 

[ctenophors rule]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15488746#post15488746 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JHemdal
Tom,

Add to that the fact that Uronema is much more prevalent during hyposalinity, and those are two really good reasons not to employ this method. The third reason, as you mention is that 1.009 is too close to the lethal lower limit for some fish - all it takes is a slightly out-of-calibration S.G. meter and you've killed some fish.

However, I am also not a proponent for the tank transfer method - the theory is good, but the application is flawed. First, no matter how much we all nag people, not enough of them quarantine their fish - usually citing lack of time and resources. The tank transfer method just makes that more likely of an issue.
It also makes the assumption that all of the Cryptocaryon organisms are on the same schedule, when in reality, once an infection gets going, you'll find all stages at all times. I've isolated tomites from fish mucus, so the idea that they are ALL shed into the water isn't true. I rank the tank transfer method there with a GOOD UV system, it can help in minor/early outbreaks, but it won't cure an acute infection.

I use organically bound copper for my routine quarantine, ionic copper for active infections and have recently been getting back into using Chloroquine (after a 30 year hiatus).

doesn't i take 2-3 days at least for a cyst that has fallen off to become 300 freeswimming larvae? if thats the case than a daily swap of water will eventualy leave you with an ichless fish..right?



Jay

 

[ctenophors rule]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15489679#post15489679 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
It is labor intensive but I think tank transfer is potentially less stressful than copper treatment if gentle capture is done. It is not very hard to capture a fish when the water level is low and there are no hiding places in the tank.
I would not dump any water from tank to tank if you use a cup or plastic bag. My fish eat right away. Shipped fish and those introduced into a tank with other fish may take a while but not when simply and gently transferred to a tank with matched water in my experience.

in the expeirience on those hat i know who have done it, the fish continued eating fine.

1. becase they were taken from an empty ten gallon tank, and put into another empty ten gallon tank, with equal water parameters...which leaves absolutely no chance of shock.

2. they caught them gently with a collection cup.

a net should never be used, if it can be avoided.

 

[tmz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15492031#post15492031 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ctenophors rule
cyst don't stay on a fish indefinately!

Actualy, the parasites encyst and multiply after they leave the fish.

 

[ctenophors rule]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15493167#post15493167 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
Actualy, the parasites encyst and multiply after they leave the fish.

thats what i was saying. lol the cyst fall off and begin multiplying then. after 3-10 days they become freeswimming once more, depending on temp.

his arguement on why it didn't work seemed to rely on a cyst staying on the fish indefinately.

 

[evsalty]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15493398#post15493398 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ctenophors rule
thats what i was saying. lol the cyst fall off and begin multiplying then. after 3-10 days they become freeswimming once more, depending on temp.

his arguement on why it didn't work seemed to rely on a cyst staying on the fish indefinately.

I NEVER SAID IT DID NOT WORK. Seriously get that thru your head!!!!! I also never mentioned it until after you for some odd reason asked me why I thought it did not work.

 

[goldmaniac]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15483331#post15483331 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by evsalty
I never said anything about the tank transfer method. I also have never used it before so this is merely speculation but from what I gather in order for the tank to tank method to work you would be doing this in a hypo enviroment or else what would cause the cysts to fall off/release. Just putting a fish in another tank that is set up to match your DT is not going to promote the release of the cyst. Also ICH does not just live on the outer body surfaces of the fish so just because you can not see it does not mean that it is not present. It will live in the mucous membrains and the gills.

you kinda did. I think it might be a combination of the way you type out your posts and maybe also the level of your understanding of the ich life cycle.
The Transfer method does not need hyposalinity to work. I believe this is what others are referring to when they're saying that you're saying it doesn't work.

I have no intention of blasting you here, nor do I mean to insult your knowledge. But I've had to read a few of your posts more than once to understand what you're stating. hey - that could just be me, though.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Many fish will not eat if there are no hiding places for it to feel secure. And right after being handled. Some will; some won't.

Each time you transfer it you have to remove all hiding places.

This has nothing to do with physical or chemical environment, but mental to some fish.

 

[billsreef]

PVC pipe fittings make great QT hiding places. They clean and dry easily, and look alike which is great for the transfer method

 

[tmz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15506788#post15506788 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billsreef
PVC pipe fittings make great QT hiding places. They clean and dry easily, and look alike which is great for the transfer method

I use them all the time. A pair of juvenile black ocellaris loved em in qt. The are now developing into a mated pair in a 30g breeder frag tank. I moved two pieces of 3 inch long 1.5inch pvc to their new home with them and propped a ceramic tile at the back for future egg laying. They hosted the pipes immediatley and have been enjoying them for about 6 mos. They ignore the corals in the tank, even the euphylia.

 

[ctenophors rule]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15477211#post15477211 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by evsalty
QT'ing without the use of hypo or chemicals/copper is just observation and the fish can still be hosts even if there is nothing visible.

this was why i thought you were disputing it.

the tank transfer method negates the use of these methods.....