JBNY's 270 Ver2.0

[JB NY]

Two weeks ago made a major change to the system and flipped over to Triton. Over the last year I had had numerous talks with lots of different people about what is going on in my system. For the most part no one was really able to pin point what the problems were. Before my series of crashes I was able to keep SPS like nobody's business, great growth great coloration, alk would bounce from 6 to 10 dkh with no issues in the tank. NO3 was undetectable, and PO4 was at 0.01. I carbon dosed and used GFO, but really didn't pay any attention to it, changed GFO once a month or every two months, did water changes twice a month. Somewhere along the line something changed that is now making keeping SPS very difficult. For the last year my readings have been more stable than ever before but I still seem to have quite a bit of problems keeping SPS.

A few different discussions brought me to making the change to Triton, one was with Julian Sprung who commented on how sometimes one species suddenly fails to thrive and eventually dies after many years of thriving in a tank. It's as if the tank becomes immune to that species and instead attacks it, Julian said he has seen this in a few tanks over the years. His guess is it is a microbial effect, but there may be some influence of allelopathy. Something changes in the tank as it gets more mature and causes a decline in the ability to biologically break down allelopathic substances that constantly exude in the water. That kind of reasoning was why I originally stopped carbon dosing to reduce nitrates. The idea that over time bacteria colonies in the tank change and something takes over in the system that makes keeping SPS difficult.

Next was a discussion with Joe Caparatta over at Unique Corals about burning tips on SPS and the general problems I have been having. His thoughts were that some trace elements were being depleted faster than normal in my system, and when that happens I am seeing this as recession of my SPS and burning tips. This explanation does fit my experience of good growth and color for a few months then brown out and recession. The problems are almost always followed by me doing a series of water changes (about 200 gallons worth) and then the system bounces back for a few months. To do some initial testing, back in September I started using Brightwells Koralle-VM and found that it did seem to help my corals recover faster, so I continued to use it. I was using it everyday but by December I started forgetting to dose a few days every week, as well as didn't get around to water changes as much, due to being busy around the holidays.

So after the last round of problems with recession and tips burning I decided to give in to the idea that maybe my system is somehow using up some trace elements faster than normal and this is what is causing my issues. So I ripped out my CA reactor, bought 2 Neptune DOS dosers and switched to Triton two weeks ago. The week before I switched I did 160 gallons of water changes using IO.

As of now the corals are looking much better, I definitely have no more recession and can see growth on the areas that were receding. But I can not say if that is because I started Triton or I did lots of water changes. The recovery period is similar to what I have had in the past, but I would say that I think that I notice a more quick recovery than I had in the past. But time will tell. If I have another round of problems in April then this might not be working as much as I hoped.

Sorry that's a lot of text to read... but hopefully this is a change for the better.

 

[reefmutt]

Well, Joe, I hope his works for you! You must be extremely frustrated.
Tell me (and anybody else who is not familiar.. If there are any other people!) what is involved in the Triton method.. I'm not aware..

 

[mhucasey]

Two weeks ago made a major change to the system and flipped over to Triton. Over the last year I had had numerous talks with lots of different people about what is going on in my system. For the most part no one was really able to pin point what the problems were. Before my series of crashes I was able to keep SPS like nobody's business, great growth great coloration, alk would bounce from 6 to 10 dkh with no issues in the tank. NO3 was undetectable, and PO4 was at 0.01. I carbon dosed and used GFO, but really didn't pay any attention to it, changed GFO once a month or every two months, did water changes twice a month. Somewhere along the line something changed that is now making keeping SPS very difficult. For the last year my readings have been more stable than ever before but I still seem to have quite a bit of problems keeping SPS.

A few different discussions brought me to making the change to Triton, one was with Julian Sprung who commented on how sometimes one species suddenly fails to thrive and eventually dies after many years of thriving in a tank. It's as if the tank becomes immune to that species and instead attacks it, Julian said he has seen this in a few tanks over the years. His guess is it is a microbial effect, but there may be some influence of allelopathy. Something changes in the tank as it gets more mature and causes a decline in the ability to biologically break down allelopathic substances that constantly exude in the water. That kind of reasoning was why I originally stopped carbon dosing to reduce nitrates. The idea that over time bacteria colonies in the tank change and something takes over in the system that makes keeping SPS difficult.

Next was a discussion with Joe Caparatta over at Unique Corals about burning tips on SPS and the general problems I have been having. His thoughts were that some trace elements were being depleted faster than normal in my system, and when that happens I am seeing this as recession of my SPS and burning tips. This explanation does fit my experience of good growth and color for a few months then brown out and recession. The problems are almost always followed by me doing a series of water changes (about 200 gallons worth) and then the system bounces back for a few months. To do some initial testing, back in September I started using Brightwells Koralle-VM and found that it did seem to help my corals recover faster, so I continued to use it. I was using it everyday but by December I started forgetting to dose a few days every week, as well as didn't get around to water changes as much, due to being busy around the holidays.

So after the last round of problems with recession and tips burning I decided to give in to the idea that maybe my system is somehow using up some trace elements faster than normal and this is what is causing my issues. So I ripped out my CA reactor, bought 2 Neptune DOS dosers and switched to Triton two weeks ago. The week before I switched I did 160 gallons of water changes using IO.

As of now the corals are looking much better, I definitely have no more recession and can see growth on the areas that were receding. But I can not say if that is because I started Triton or I did lots of water changes. The recovery period is similar to what I have had in the past, but I would say that I think that I notice a more quick recovery than I had in the past. But time will tell. If I have another round of problems in April then this might not be working as much as I hoped.

Sorry that's a lot of text to read... but hopefully this is a change for the better.

Very interesting Joe, you are probably right. I think that some trace elements are bound quickly by bacteria and algae and skimmed out or consumed. Primarily among these are Iodine and Iron. On the other end of the spectrum, sometimes Iron builds up when lots of GFO is used. Finally, there are some others that get depleted, but need to be present in tiny amounts, such as copper, manganese, zinc(Ive heard some buzz about zinc depletion) etc.

Did you get the initial Triton Results to see where the tank was starting at? What are you adding as part of their program? Will you continue to use Chaeto?

 

[mpoletti]

It will get better. Hope the LEDs are working out for you.

The LED's are fine, the Markkeepingupwiththetank is the problem :thumbsup:

I messed up again and grew a couple corals too big and thus killing a few others from shading. Like I said, Mark problems. :lol:

 

[JB NY]

Well, Joe, I hope his works for you! You must be extremely frustrated.
Tell me (and anybody else who is not familiar.. If there are any other people!) what is involved in the Triton method.. I'm not aware..

I hope so too.

Really there is not too much to it. No Ca reactor just 4 part dosing, the dosing takes care of trace elements as well so you do not do water changes. NO3 is removed from algae in a refugium (I am already using the ARID). PO4 with GFO (but I won't need that). You can also dose individual elements if you want, I choose to dose what they call the I-Group of elements, Vandium, Zinc, Manganese, and Iodine. This group is also what the guys at triton feel reduces burnt tips, and helps with growth for in SPS (specifically Zinc). So I'll dose that for a while and see what happens.

I am not aware of many people doing this method, you are right. But the few people I know using it are very happy, so at this point I might as well give it a try.

 

[maxxII]

I'm interested in seeing how this works for you.

So what all exactly are you dosing, and where are you getting it from?

 

[JB NY]

Very interesting Joe, you are probably right. I think that some trace elements are bound quickly by bacteria and algae and skimmed out or consumed. Primarily among these are Iodine and Iron. On the other end of the spectrum, sometimes Iron builds up when lots of GFO is used. Finally, there are some others that get depleted, but need to be present in tiny amounts, such as copper, manganese, zinc(Ive heard some buzz about zinc depletion) etc.

Did you get the initial Triton Results to see where the tank was starting at? What are you adding as part of their program? Will you continue to use Chaeto?

Zinc depletion is on of the elements that I was told lead to burnt tips. So I definitely started dosing that.

I did a triton test in December, I will continue to use chaeto, it is part of their means of reducing NO3. As part for the program I decided to use the following, the 4 part elements dosed daily, and the I-Group of elements (zinc, vandium, Manganese, and Iodine) dosed once a week. That is pretty much it.

 

[maxxII]

Silly question,

Do you feel the Triton method will be less expensive, about the same cost, or more expensive monthly than:

Regular water changes
Increased RO/Di filter changes due to regular water changes
Increased electrical use to mix, and heat ASW for regular water changes
Ca Rx media and CO2 use for Ca Rx
Regular cleaning, calibrating and replacing of pH Controller Probe, (I know you have an Apex and that's probably being used to track your system pH anyway, but I'm assuming you have a separate pH Controller for your Ca Rx).


I know this is an expensive hobby, (Honestly, I have yet to find a non expensive hobby...seriously), but I'm curious if this will be an added expense, a reduced expense or about the same.

Obviously, it's the results that matter and will ultimately decide, but I initially figured this would be an increased expense until I started thinking about everything that went into regular water changes and running a Ca Rx in a reef tank.....

 

[JB NY]

hmm, you added some things that are an expense that I didn't take into account. DI resin, electrical usage for water changes, also the pH probe on the reactor.

Originally I thought that it would be more expensive, right now I figure I will burn through the Base Elementz in about 6 weeks. But that seems to be the main expense. I am dosing some separate elements but that should last 6 months or more with the low dosage that is used.

I still think it is more expensive though, but maybe not as much as I had originally thought. This weekend was the first of not doing my twice monthly water changes and I really noticed how much time I usually put into doing that. I have to fill the 44 gallon container over two days because my ATO container doesn't have enough to fill 44 gallons in one shot. Then I mix the salt, add muriatic acid to drop the alk, add magnesium and calcium to match the DT, and wait 12 hours for the Ph to rise after the acid. I think that time might end up being the thing that I save more of, which for me is worth more than the $20-$30 a month more that this might cost me.

But in the end it really only matters if this make a difference, the last round of problems cost me a few hundred dollars of corals so at this point I'm ok with the expense if it works.

 

[maxxII]

I forgot you use Muriatic acid for lowering DKh and supplement Ca and Mg to your water change water.....

This hobby is expensive, (as I said before, I really cannot think of a cheap hobby) but there are things that are additional expenses that I have a hard time justifying at this point...

If this ends up working out for you, and you see long term improvements, then it's worth it and I may consider changing over to it as well.

I have a hard time believing in no water change methods... but I'm forced to wonder, how much of that is ingrained from years of being indoctrinated with that as being a "Law"? I was convinced a skimmer was necessary for a reef tank....been going on a couple of months on my set up without one....and it's working fine. So there is that...

Ultimately, you are the one who will decide if this works out for you or not.

I'm hoping it does for a few reasons, your peace of mind, and the whole time saving thing as well. I'd also have less water in my basement at any given moment as well....

 

[JB NY]

The no water change thing originally I thought of as something I would not do too. But before I started using the base elements I really thought about what I am supposed to be getting with water changes. For the most part it is to reduce nutrients and replenish trace elements. For me I don't need to reduce nutrients as I am already trying to keep them elevated. So that leaves trace elements, which is what I will be dosing. So the only other thing it could be useful for is dilution of contaminants that get in the system, but right now that is not the issue.

So the more I thought about it the more I am ok with not doing water changes on any regular basis, if I do not need to.

I've always tried to be as honest as I can when I try something, so this will be no different.

 

[mhucasey]

The no water change thing originally I thought of as something I would not do too. But before I started using the base elements I really thought about what I am supposed to be getting with water changes. For the most part it is to reduce nutrients and replenish trace elements. For me I don't need to reduce nutrients as I am already trying to keep them elevated. So that leaves trace elements, which is what I will be dosing. So the only other thing it could be useful for is dilution of contaminants that get in the system, but right now that is not the issue.

So the more I thought about it the more I am ok with not doing water changes on any regular basis, if I do not need to.

I've always tried to be as honest as I can when I try something, so this will be no different.

I can tell you that changing water regularly is not necessary - its how I operate and have operated for a couple of years now. I for one would like to see a mindset change about what the water change is for, and you hit it on the head- if you aren't needing to reduce nutrients, and if you are adding the right elements, then you are just throwing good water down the drain. Triton is one way of doing this and they can back up what they preach with ICP test results.

 

[Big E]

Good read here on Trace elements & water changes--

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1348499

 

[ReefWreak]

I can tell you that changing water regularly is not necessary - its how I operate and have operated for a couple of years now. I for one would like to see a mindset change about what the water change is for, and you hit it on the head- if you aren't needing to reduce nutrients, and if you are adding the right elements, then you are just throwing good water down the drain.

I totally agree with you, and for you, for me when I had my 120g tank, for JB NY, and some others, it's a viable option. I think the reason it is still dogmatic for the hobby is that most hobbyists are not like us. How many of the people on ReefCentral are skilled and advanced enough hobbyists, who have taken the time to read the articles, books, white papers, and then apply the knowledge like we have? Probably a small minority.

I think it's dogmatic and rightly so is because for most of the people who have a nutrient issue, whose corals aren't doing well, or who had a bad day with their tank, the easiest, simplest, and most practical solution is to do a water change with properly adjusted temperature and salinity water.

It's the same logic to me as why now the advanced SPS keepers are raising their nutrient levels the last few years, after a decade or more of the dogma of ULNS. I still recommend that everyone who isn't an advanced and knowledgeable reefkeeper shoot for 0 nitrate and 0 phosphate. Once you master that, then you can play around with nutrient levels. But for most hobbyists who just want to reduce nuisance algae and keep their tank healthy, 0/0 is the right goal for them.

 

[mhucasey]

I totally agree with you, and for you, for me when I had my 120g tank, for JB NY, and some others, it's a viable option. I think the reason it is still dogmatic for the hobby is that most hobbyists are not like us. How many of the people on ReefCentral are skilled and advanced enough hobbyists, who have taken the time to read the articles, books, white papers, and then apply the knowledge like we have? Probably a small minority.

I think it's dogmatic and rightly so is because for most of the people who have a nutrient issue, whose corals aren't doing well, or who had a bad day with their tank, the easiest, simplest, and most practical solution is to do a water change with properly adjusted temperature and salinity water.

It's the same logic to me as why now the advanced SPS keepers are raising their nutrient levels the last few years, after a decade or more of the dogma of ULNS. I still recommend that everyone who isn't an advanced and knowledgeable reefkeeper shoot for 0 nitrate and 0 phosphate. Once you master that, then you can play around with nutrient levels. But for most hobbyists who just want to reduce nuisance algae and keep their tank healthy, 0/0 is the right goal for them.

Very true, in order to go without water changes its important to be in tune with your tank so that you can spot issues quickly and adjust if needed. Not a good idea for the inexperienced reefkeeper.

As far as the dogma of 0Nitrate 0 phosphate, the biggest problem with that is that nitrate at zero is becoming the source of a lot of SPS problems. Maybe the direction should be "Keep it less than 10, but not absolutely zero."

Zero phosphate is hard to achieve so targeting zero is a good idea as long as the newbie aquarist doesn't try to achieve it through brute force, ie. overdoing GFO, indiscriminately using Lanthanum Chloride, etc..


In both cases, the word needs to get out that NO3 or PO4 are not killers. I still see people saying I have x coral dying and i think its because my phosphate is too high(usually something like 0.15). We try to keep them low to limit nuisance algae and improve coral growth. Having some of either isn't dangerous.

 

[JB NY]

Good read here on Trace elements & water changes--

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1348499

So I have read those a while ago, and in some ways I agree with the idea of not adding things that we don't know what concentration we should be striving for. I think that there is some merit to the idea that our tanks might need some thing other thank CA, alk, and Mg, my tank seems to be a prime example. What has happened in my tank where i go from years of having such success and explosive growth, to not being able to keep SPS practically at all?

I know that people occasionally have this happen, and I think that most just don't spend the time banging their head against the wall trying to figure it out, they either take the tank down or remove everything and start new. At this point I sort of want to see if I can figure it out. If I can finally get the tank moving forward AND know what was the cause, I think that would be something that we can use to help other people out.

 

[MIKE NY]

X2....been preaching this for years. I'm a firm believer in heavy in and heavy out...so I have a lot of fish and use a large fuge, GFO and a large skimmer along with bi- monthly 10% W/Cs. If my phos or trates get too low I'm not dosing just adding more fish or feeding. That being written it's a fine balance between too low and high and I find even in the acceptable range, under 1.0 some species of SPS need that sweet spot within that range along with the usual stability of lighting, flow and elements.. Alk, cal, mag etc....just my opinion after many years in this hobby.

 

[JB NY]

As far as the dogma of 0Nitrate 0 phosphate, the biggest problem with that is that nitrate at zero is becoming the source of a lot of SPS problems. Maybe the direction should be "Keep it less than 10, but not absolutely zero."

Zero phosphate is hard to achieve so targeting zero is a good idea as long as the newbie aquarist doesn't try to achieve it through brute force, ie. overdoing GFO, indiscriminately using Lanthanum Chloride, etc...

I think that a lot has changed in the past 10 years that the idea of 0 N and P can now be taken to the extremes.

I remember having discussions on GFO nd experimenting with it from people who were sending it over to try from Europe, before there was even a means of buying it here. Same goes for carbon dosing. When I shut down my old 180 in 2006 I had taken big pieces of coral to friends to hold while I put up a new tank and then pulled all the GFO and carbon from my tank and stared playing with vodka dosing in the months before I tore that tank down. I think I was exchanging emails with Mike Paletta at the time about how to go about it because there were so few people even doing it at the time.

Fast forward to today and carbon dosing and GFO is so widespread that almost anyone can drop P and N to 0 pretty easily, but it seems to have uncovered a whole host of other issues that didn't exist 10 years ago. but people are still using carbon dosing and GFO to get to those 0 numbers from years ago before these products were available.

 

[JB NY]

Here are some pics of the damage on a few corals that are recovering.

Most of them just burnt the whole top side, or any part that was facing the light. Like this one, but I have ones that are right next to it and they ended up being just fine.

A lot of them just had the tips burn, this one is now recovering. I need to clip that tip.

This one is at least recovering really well, almost all of that growth is from the last two weeks. I thought this one was going to die on me.

But not all are bad, I'll post some more of others that didn't burn up and are now starting to get some really good coloration.

 

[JB NY]

X2....been preaching this for years. I'm a firm believer in heavy in and heavy out...so I have a lot of fish and use a large fuge, GFO and a large skimmer along with bi- monthly 10% W/Cs. If my phos or trates get too low I'm not dosing just adding more fish or feeding. That being written it's a fine balance between too low and high and I find even in the acceptable range, under 1.0 some species of SPS need that sweet spot within that range along with the usual stability of lighting, flow and elements.. Alk, cal, mag etc....just my opinion after many years in this hobby.

completely agree!