jynxtrix's Forcibly Propogated Haddoni Anemone

[ousnakebyte]

Wow... I step away for three hours to teach a class, and look what you all did. I just can't take some of you all ANYWHERE!

(Hi, my name is Mike, and I make jokes in uncomfortable situations - it's how I roll. :rollface: HA! Get it? That's how I ROLL. I posted the rolling smilely... Yes, I'm 'punny' DOH! I mean... funny! I can't help myself.) Ahem.... anyway...


It's difficult to not be pessimistic about propagating these animals when so many have tried - and most never return to report the ones that died. But, those "failures" are no less important. (I say that in quotes b/c even if something dies, it can still give us information, if properly documented, controlled, etc.).

I hope you succeed - I *really* do. But, as someone else pointed out, two months is a good start, but when talking long-term success with these animals, we are talking multiple years survival, perhaps with repeated, successful propagation. B/c, let's face it... we are dealing with animals that live LONG periods of time.

I would bring up the sand/pvc tube with sand issue again. I know you said you tried it in the net, and the sand fell through - but perhaps a larger grain size? Or, build the pvc tube with cap trick and put it in the display.

I'm just concerned that the anemone not feeling secure (i.e. not having the foot buried) might cause more stress, which neither need right now.

Cheers
Mike

 

[garygb]

From everything I've read, maxi-minis can easily be fragged with great success. That is a species that is thought to never asexually reproduce. It's curious that the success rate with haddoni is so low. Whatever the case, the anemone has been fragged already, it would be unfortunate not to keep the thread going at this point.

 

[hypnoj]

following. Good luck with the splits.

 

[deangelr]

And here we go!

HaHa.. BOOM!

 

[LesMartin]

From everything I've read, maxi-minis can easily be fragged with great success. That is a species that is thought to never asexually reproduce.

A member of a UK forum recently posted (with a picture) that one of his maxi mini's had budded off a replica. Am I allowed to post a link ????

 

[Toddrtrex]

A member of a UK forum recently posted (with a picture) that one of his maxi mini's had budded off a replica. Am I allowed to post a link ????

Yes, since it is germane to this topic.

Now, if you started a thread telling everyone to look at this new reef site, that would be removed. (( basically, trying to push traffic to another site is frowned upon, but a direct link to a topic is (( usually )) okay. )).

 

[Tmoriarty]

A member of a UK forum recently posted (with a picture) that one of his maxi mini's had budded off a replica. Am I allowed to post a link ????

I might post pics of my maxi-mini's tonight. They do reproduce asexually through linear fission just like BTA's and occasionally Ritteris. But alas they are not considered a hosting variety of anemone. (some clowns will host in them, but then again some clowns host in condy nems to... and frogspawns).

 

[garygb]

Ah, thanks for the information regarding the maxi-minis. I knew the mini-minis divided asexually, but was under the impression the maxis did not. If that's the case, that would explain their high success rate with being fragged.

 

[elegance coral]

Ah, thanks for the information regarding the maxi-minis. I knew the mini-minis divided asexually, but was under the impression the maxis did not. If that's the case, that would explain their high success rate with being fragged.

Some people are thinking that the mini and maxi may be the same species. Just different varieties. Like large and small quadricolor, or magnifica. From my understanding, the mini is classified as tapetum, but the maxi is a tapetum as well, or simply hasn't been classified yet.:hmm5:

 

[elegance coral]

Maybe you should look into an individual named Anthony Calfo, who is also quite well known in this hobby for the books he has written on marine invertebrates, let me provide his reply to an individual who posted that EXACT letter.

That individual would have been me.

You may want to look deeper into an individual named Anthony Calfo, and his activities that define his character, before you use him as a reference to support your argument.

"Dr Fautin, though highly esteemed (and deservedly so) in her field... has been a sometimes (very) harsh critic of the aquaruim trade for many years.

So what does that mean? So she hates the idea that this hobby slaughters large numbers of these animals every year. So do I, and pretty much every other anemone keeper you'll find in this forum. If manually cutting these animals in half had the slightest possibility of being productive, wouldn't someone with her opinion be in favor of the practice?

Moreover, Dr. Fautin has not actually tried to farm anemones as best I know.

As best I know, Anthony Calfo has not farmed these animals either.

Dr. Fautin knows the biology of these animals. Why would she need to cut them in half to know the likelihood of survival is pretty much nonexistent? Would you need to cut a dog in half to know its highly likely to die? Hopefully, you understand the biology of dogs well enough to know that cutting them in half is a bad idea. The experiment is not needed.

I have personally successfully (as in multiplied numbers of divisions grown out to harvest size) propagated each of the species presently known in the aquarium trade.

And that is nothing more than a bold faced lie. He does not have one shred of evidence to back up such a ridiculous claim.

This is well documented in the archives of this forum and numerous others.

And we have yet another bold faced lie from this man. I spend days reading through these archives, and there is not one shred of evidence to support his claims. The archives are still there for anyone to read and see for themselves.

In my travels, I have met numerous people that make their full-time income propagating such organisms.

I've been at this for a very long time, and I've met and spoke with many many people on this subject. I've never met, or heard of, anyone that makes their "full-time income propagating such organisms". We are on the largest site of this kind. Is there anyone out there that can say they make their full-time income in this way? Anyone? Of course there isn't. It simply amazes me that this man actually expects us to believe the dribble he spews.

The angle that "[asexual fragmentation] does not happen commonly or naturally in most of these species in nature" is a staggeringly myopic defense. Humans successfully, safely and efficiently culture a plethora of organisms (food, science and otherwise) by developed techniques that do not happen naturally. Surely you are aware of this?

Grafting fruit trees has absolutely nothing to do with cutting anemones in half.

With all due respect, I am not sure why you chose to make this your first post... and without a question, when the very evidence to support the hobby side of it sit in this very forum ("Fav threads" sticky atop this forum... scroll to the post called "discussions" and see the alphabetical entry. Or.... just use the search function)?

Again. This is untrue. The evidence is not there.

We have ALL heard about the risks. I knew what they were when I started it,

I don't believe you did. If you did, why would you post the self promoting, and false statements from the likes of Anthony Calfo to support your position? Seems to me like you took this man at his word, and he deceived you, like he has countless others.

 

[Tony B (UK)]

Please do keep this thread updated over the next 24 months.

I have a solid purple haddoni and I would not dare cut it, purely because of the very high mortality rate.

For any one else thinking of cutting haddoni nems up, please look at what others have done before you. Look at their methods - just getting the nem out and slicing it in half has been done loads of times before, with death as the common outcome. If you must slice up your haddoni, try and find a way to do it differently, try and find a way to help recovery. Just doing the same stuff over and over again that often results in death and hoping for life is a recipe for futility.

Cutting carpet nems is such a controversial exercise, but you knew this at the start hence your wording and anti flaming request.

Why did you decide to cut it in half?

Tony

 

[BonsaiNut]

That individual would have been me.

Elegance, comparing Calfo to Fautin is a little like comparing a smack-talking, local kid in a playground basketball game to Michael Jordan.

I have a copy of the paper Dr. Fautin presented to the American Philosophical Society back in 1981, and many/most of her papers since. I consider the American Philosophical Society to be the single most prestigious organization in the United States (a private, invitation-only society founded by Benjamin Franklin), and if Daphne Fautin was good enough for them, who am I to disagree She has been studying and publishing peer-reviewed papers on anemones and clownfish for over 30 years. She certainly doesn't need me to stand up for her reputation - but she has been helpful to me in the past and has pointed me in the right direction a number of times in my studies / pursuits. If I ever accomplish anything of note that might warrant being published in a scientific journal, she would be the first person I would turn to for guidance / mentoring (if she would have me).

I have nothing against Calfo, personally. I have just seen enough to have reached the conclusion that he has no credibility, so I ignore anything that comes from him.

 

[OrionN]

Please keep update. I hope you will be successful, however, like a lot of of posters here, I have yet seen any evidence of any success in fraging S. haddoni. This is not impossible because I have heard of 1 of the daughter anemones survived, which is failure but not total failure, in my opinion. I just hope this is not another failure frag carpet thread.
Goodluck

 

[Dukester]

Please keep update. I hope you will be successful, however, like a lot of of posters here, I have yet seen any evidence of any success in fraging S. haddoni. This is not impossible because I have heard of 1 of the daughter anemones survived, which is failure but not total failure, in my opinion. I just hope this is not another failure frag carpet thread.
Goodluck

u must remember the thread a few months back from the guy who is in Australia, he showed pictures of a split blue carpet and stated success with both splits. He was continually put down and beat up by the "high post counters" here until he just left and abandoned his thread.. there were confirmations of his story from others in the area, there were a few pictures also but "without 100's of pictures" "it didnt happen" he must have just took pictures of 2 new smaller blue carpets and made the whole thing up right?

 

[Toddrtrex]

And you must remember that Minh specifically mentioned S. haddoni (( which this thread is about )) and that thread was about S. gigantea, which is not the same type of anemone.

 

[Dukester]

regardless.. that thread got the same bashing as this one. Between you and EC and a few others.. the negativity people recieve on this forum some days is astounding. if you dig around theres more than a few successful split haddoni threads here on RC, and you've taken part in them all i would imagine so how can you say that its not possible?

Heres one for example:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1740727

 

[Toddrtrex]

If you say that asking for long term (( over a year )) proof is bashing, then so be it. In that thread you link the OP, "sold" the anemone after 7 months. So, I still stand by what I said that there isn't any long term proof. As anyone who has kept an S. haddoni knows, it can take a very long time for them to be "off" before they actually die.

All that "we" have asked for is long term proof, sorry that you think that is too much to ask for.

 

[Dukester]

hey, i hate to direct this at you Todd but im pretty sure that 7 months, a totally healed cut, the fact it was eating, etc etc makes it a success. Point being that once someone shows some longer term success.. its still not going to be good enough for some.

 

[BonsaiNut]

u must remember the thread a few months back from the guy who is in Australia, he showed pictures of a split blue carpet and stated success with both splits. He was continually put down and beat up by the "high post counters" here until he just left and abandoned his thread.. there were confirmations of his story from others in the area, there were a few pictures also but "without 100's of pictures" "it didnt happen" he must have just took pictures of 2 new smaller blue carpets and made the whole thing up right?

Dukester, the negativity comes from the fact that the lives of animals are involved and people are doing the same thing, over and over, with low success rates. Plus, many people are loose with the facts... saying one thing and when you press them for details, they back off their original statements.

Even in the thread that you refer to (in which I had no involvement) the poster claims that LTA's have been split successfully. AS FAR AS I AM AWARE there has never been a single case of M. doreensis being cut in half and having either side survive. Loose comments like this will cause someone else to go out and kill anemones - because they don't know any better. How many LTA's will be killed because this one person tossed out a comment on an Internet forum that wasn't based on fact?

Perhaps you remember the guy from Australia claiming that he could cut S. gigantea into six pieces and have all of them survive? This is another species that has NO RECORD of being cut in half and have either piece survive. This poster was very aggressive towards the critics, but he cut his anemone in half... and then disappeared as soon as anyone asked for an update. I don't doubt that he killed his anemone - and his original claim of being able to cut S. gigantea into six pieces is laughable.

The point remains the same. There are two species of clown anemones that reproduce asexually in the wild. These may be "fragged" with some degree of success - but even with these species the success rate is not 100% (though it is in excess of 50% so you typically end up with more anemones than you start with).

Of the sexually-reproducing anemones - only S. haddoni and S. mertensii have any record of being fragged successfully... and the term "success" here has to be used somewhat carefully because in the single success case of S. mertensii, half of the anemone died, and the other half lived, healed up, and then slowly weakened and died shortly afterward. There are many more cases of S. haddoni failure than success - and success often means only one half of the anemone survives and then it is scarred and weak for a year or more later. Compare this to frags of E. quadricolor or H. magnifica (the asexually reproducing anemones) where frags will often be completely healed in two months - to the extent that you can't tell they were ever fragged via appearance or behavior.

Sadly, most people don't care. Instead of considering themselves "the average" they consider themselves the exception to the rule. They say "I know MOST people fail doing this, but I am going to do this and be the one person in 20 who succeeds". I would even feel better (personally) if someone tried to do something DIFFERENT and shared their experience with others. But the extent of most efforts seem to be limited to "anemone + butcher knife".

The negativity of these comments do NOT come from a desire to see anyone fail. Quite the contrary. The negativity comes from watching the same car crash over and over again. Will people ever learn? Do they care?

 

[Tethered_Limbs]

wow, people dont get it...... PREACH EC!!!!!!