Lanthanum chloride

[tmz]

Aferthought. Three weeks ago, I acutualy brought a new asm 4x skimmer in the house ,got it down the basement, in the sump next to the first one and running and disposed of the packaging unseen while my wife was home. Later that eveneing she came down and kept looking at the sumps which she never does. Either she couldn't remember if they were both there or she was too kind to give me a hard time about it.Probably the later.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13908337#post13908337 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jansenwrasse
Gary have you checked the pH after dosing? I am wondering if the pH rises to any significant level in your size tank.

I monitored pH during this mornings treatment (performed as described in this thread) and there was no significant change in pH

Tom- I hear ya. I recently managed to sneak a 2 x 400w PFO ballast into the house :smokin:

 

[m-fine]

What those old things? You have had those for years!

 

[Conesus_Kid]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13933701#post13933701 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gary Majchrzak
I recently managed to sneak a 2 x 400w PFO ballast into the house :smokin:

"What's that tucked under your shirt??!?!"

"Nothing, dear."


:lol:



This phosphate removal technique appears to be a winner. I've read that melev goes this route as well. When I run out of GFO, I'll be joining the club.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

I wasn't aware Marc was using this stuff. I wonder if his dosage or technique is different from mine. I'll have to search.

Meanwhile- Icecap has repaired my ballast and it works fine so I need to hook up with you Scott.

 

[Conesus_Kid]

Gary-

Check the third post down from the top here.

No hurry on the ballast. I can work around your schedule, especially if you're around between Christmas and New Year's.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

tanks, Scott

tanks, Scott

back on topic:

I believe dosing Lanthanum chloride might be affecting the health of my tridacna clam. It would make sense. Tridacna are probably one of the most sensitive filter feeding reef organisms.
Lawnmower Blenny is very skinny today but hanging in there.
Everything else looks great.

 

[melev]

Thanks for the link, Gary.

When I stated that I'm using Lanthanum chloride, it isn't the stuff you buy at the pool store. As you pointed to earlier, there is a beautiful public aquarium using it that I found via Google myself.

Both Phosbuster Pro (Caribsea) and Phosphate Control (Blue Life USA) contain Lanthanum chloride, and both are very easy to dose to your tank. The former is a bottle you pour in (one bottle treats 250g), the latter you add in an area of high flow drop by drop.

According to the bottle's instructions (Blue Life), 6 drops per 10 gallons will drop PO4 1ppm. The new version they released (in a box rather than a tube, the instructions varied and it states 6 drops in 10 gallons will drop it .05ppm. I don't know if that means they diluted the product or not though.

Also, it states clearly on both that cloudiness is to be expected, and that it will clear within 24 hours. For me, I always dose late at night when the fish are sleeping, as their respiration should be at its lowest then. The next morning, the tank is crystal clear and the skimmer's cup is full of skimmate with a white tinge to it.

I don't use filter socks in my system at all.

I had a theory that if this stuff works so nicely, it would be ideal if we could just drip in one drop at a time into the skimmer itself, and let it skim PO4 right out of the water instead of turning the tank cloudy. The method would take longer, since you couldn't dose everything at once, but rather would be treating the water volume in the skimmer body. You'd be dosing it all day long to pull it off though.

For specifics, I dose my tank with 120 drops, and it knocks the PO4 to 0 overnight. The only livestock in my tank that seems affected are the Lavendar Frilly mushrooms. They really hate it, but since I have too many of them, I don't really mind causing them a little discomfort. Within 48 hours, they are back to normal again. 120 drops is what I would need to drop .5 ppm of PO4 in 400g of water. I probably could get by with less since my PO4 doesn't get above .25 anymore.

Dosing occurs as needed, rather than a specific amount of drops weekly. I'd guess I dose the reef about every 6 weeks, based on test kit results taken first.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

thanks for chiming in here, Marc.
It will be interesting to find out all of the differences between the product marketed for the aquarium industry and the one marketed for the pool industry. I have a very strong hunch the main difference is price.
Dosing into a 10 micron sock gives results very similar to dosing into a sand filter (like the public aquariums do). The combination of 10 micron filter and protein skimmer is more effective at removing precip than running just the skimmer alone IME. The 10 micron filter also allows you to monitor cloudiness.
Contact time makes a difference- dosing the PO4 remover into the display's drains allows it to mix with tankwater through 10 ft. of plumbing before dumping it into the 10 micron filter bag (or skimmer) in the sump. This results in a very efficient use of the product while minimalizing tank cloudiness. The filter bag appears to mysteriously blow up like a balloon as precip clogs it's pores.
My skimmer picks up residual missed by the 10 micron filter and a fine, clean, clear to white foamhead develops during and after a treatment.
If I see cloudiness escaping through the 10 micron filter I stop treatment and resume it at a later point in time.
This obviously works for reducing phosphates. The jury is still out on any long term harm that might become of this.

I need to talk to a few folks about their clams.

 

[melev]

The T. maxima in my tank never seem affected by the treatments. None of the livestock seems bothered, but the next time I dose I'll look more carefully at each item to see if I've overlooked any animals.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

this method of phosphate reduction isn't well known yet

I'm sure it will be once word gets out AND long term use proves it to be safe. My clam thing may or may not be related- only time (and other's experiences) will tell.
No doubt certain (Acanthurus) Tangs breathe heavier and act erratic during a dosage that's too quick and/or too concentrated.
One thing's for sure- my stony corals benefit from a reduction of phosphates.

 

[SkiFletch]

Gary, what specific trouble are you having with your Maxima? My T. crocea sometimes develops discoloration of its mantle since I've been dosing lanthanum, and sometimes not... Curious if that's the problem yours has, or something else?

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

my crocea goes from really spectacular (fully open and colorful) to crappy and "pinched" looking. I've been dealing with clams in my systems for a long time. Something is weird with this- trust me.

 

[SkiFletch]

Hummm, ok, well that's not the same behavior mine has. Every now and again the mantle will get "blotchy" for lack of a better term, but it never gets really bad and it never pinches that's for sure.

 

[tmz]

Gary, Rapid phosphate reduction regardless of the method can cause Tridacnids to suffer some. I have read threads describing pinched mantle on clams in tanks where fast phosphate reductions occured with gfo. So it may be possible your clam is reacting to a rapid change in orthophosphate levels.

 

[m-fine]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13945194#post13945194 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
Gary, Rapid phosphate reduction regardless of the method can cause Tridacnids to suffer some.

Sounds like a test with smaller more frequent dosings might be in order.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13945194#post13945194 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
Gary, Rapid phosphate reduction regardless of the method can cause Tridacnids to suffer some. I have read threads describing pinched mantle on clams in tanks where fast phosphate reductions occured with gfo. So it may be possible your clam is reacting to a rapid change in orthophosphate levels.

I hadn't heard that before. Thanks for sharing that info, Tom.
It makes sense.

 

[tmz]

Well, in reading back through many of the posts, there is a lot of theorizing but as is often the case, little hard information. Much of the discursion is centered on a protozoan infection endemic to clams which hypothetically may be limited by a lack of iron.
So the theory is that gfo may increase iron and enable the protozoan.Quite a stretch.
But the fact is there are numerous reports of pinched mantle following phosphate removal with several accounts of pinched mantle following the use of non iron based phosphate removers. So the common denominator is phosphate removal. There are also several reports of coral stress related to rapid diminution in phosphate levels,since it is thought they need time to adjust their phosphate gathering mechanisms.Seems as though this would apply to clams as well.

As you may already know phosphate(PO4) can inhibit abiotic precipitation in a way similar to magnesium by taking a spot on a forming calcium carbonate crystal.This property is thought to account for the decline in ph and alkalinity that sometimes accompanies rapid removal of PO4. These changes in ph and alkalinity if they are occurring could be causing the stress as well.

One other notion to explore is the relationship between NO3 and PO4,the Redfield ratio . Is it possible that as PO4 drops some of the the organisms that consume it and NO3 wane leading to an increase in nitrate and might this be causing ill effects?

Any way some things to think about.

It does seem prudent to take down phosphate ,slowly,however, and to monitor ph and akalinity while doing so. FWIW m y system does pretty well at about .1 to .15 ppm phosphate (no hair algae) a bit of turf algae. This is far higher than the .02 to.03ppm highly sought natural reef values but comfortably below the .25ppm threshold claimed to inhibit coral growth. Running carbon and or polypad might be a good idea in case there is an impurity in the lanthanum chloride.

Also, just FYI many of the posters swear by a 20 minute freshwater dip in temperature adjusted ro water to eradicate the protozoan and heal the clam. I have not tried this but will when and if I get back into keeping clams. I'll probably have a chance to try it out at SWP at some point.

Good Luck and Thanks again for keeping us informed on the lanthanum chloride effort.

 

[Jk5]

Lanthanum chloride tested six months...

no problem if you make little po4 removals (0.01 po4 each day, until you reach your desired values).
Very important... no dosing in the tank...
lanthanum must be dilluited and dosed in 24 hours in the lanthanum reactor filtering with water floss...
Water floss is good enough catching precipitation.

Ya hace prácticamente seis meses desde que empecé con el ensayo de adición del Cloruro de Lantano.
Hasta el dia de hoy mi experiencia ha sido de lo más positiva, ningún animal ha mostrado sintomas negativos achacables al Lantano, y la reducción de fosfatos es totalmente efectiva. En mi opinión, estamos frente a un producto "reef safe" en condiciones de contención.

Os presento una idea de un diseño muy sencillo que funcionaría bastante bien, y que lo haría de forma óptima si metemos una pequeña bomba de recirculación dentro de la cámara de reacción.

El aditivo que estoy usando es le siguiente:
10 gramos de Cloruro de lantano heptahidrato (LaCl3 7H2O)
1000 ml de agua de osmósis

En función del litraje de nuestro acuario, y de la cantidad de fosfato que necesitemos exportar, añadiremos más o menos cantidad de LaCl3 7H2O
Actualmente y para mi sistema de 1000 ltrs brutos, estoy aditando 100 ml repartidas en un total de 24 dosificaciones.
Recomiendo empezar con adiciones bajas (10 ml), y controlar los fosfatos a la salida del reactor y la columna de agua. La presencia de fosfato en el agua del acuario nos dirá si vamos bien o no.
No es recomendable que el fosfato baje de 0,003 ppm en la columna de agua. La presencia de fosfato, nos indicará que estamos agotando totalmente la reaccion LaCl3 7H2O / P.

La mejor opción para aditar el aditivo de LaCl3 7H2O es mediante una peristáltica y en dosis lo mas frecuentes y pequeñas posible.

 

[RyanEG]

Hmm can anyone translate that quote for the bilingually impaired folks like myself? I knew I should have paid more attention in high school, for gods sake I was a partial spanish major!