Leonardo's Apogon Reef

v1...rotate said:
Incredible Leonardo!!!
I always love reading your updates.
Well done!!! :thumbsup::thumbsup:
Click to expand...

Thanks Andrew:thumbsup:

How do you like the LED addition now that you have the new PM a bit longer? Is it really improving growth/color or it is mainly aesthetics, combined with that many T5. Just curious because I added 20x3 Watt Led to my 400 Watt T5 power myself last week ;)

Leonardo
 
Leonardo_ said:
I've written some articles about proper quarantine and shipping cardinals, because it's not the easiest fish (in the beginning). Maybe you can read these before you start :) When acclimated they are quite hardy and not so shy at all.

This project was originally called "Apogon Reef". I've tried to add some Leptacanthus Cardinals several times to try, but they perished every time because of the very high flow. That's why I decided to stop trying. I'm thinking about Anthias right now, but I'm a bit undecided.

Thinking about these:

anthias3.jpg


Leonardo
Click to expand...

Yes, actually after I found your thread I did some googling and came across your website, I read the articles on there. Sorry to hear that the conditions of your reef were too intense for the cardinals...
What Kind of Anthia is that one you've pictured? They are quite striking! I am fairly new to the hobby, I am on my 4th year, I have just finished setting up a "proper" tank and I am SLOWLY stocking it. I have shied away from Antias in the past tank due to their care level and feeding requirements.
 
Amazing job leonardo:inlove:
Love how the corals look and the general aesthetic approach!
Something unique once more,thanks for sharing
 
fessoclown said:
Yes, actually after I found your thread I did some googling and came across your website, I read the articles on there. Sorry to hear that the conditions of your reef were too intense for the cardinals...
What Kind of Anthia is that one you've pictured? They are quite striking! I am fairly new to the hobby, I am on my 4th year, I have just finished setting up a "proper" tank and I am SLOWLY stocking it. I have shied away from Antias in the past tank due to their care level and feeding requirements.
Click to expand...

Yes, I'm not sure about Anthias also. I only consider to buy them after long and proper quarantine in the LFS. The species in the photo is Pseudanthias flavoguttatus. For me the most beautiful Anthias I've seen available.

Good luck with your setup and let me know if you need more info about the Apogon :thumbsup:

Leonardo
 
Although i have followed this thread from the beginning, i have simply watched in awe and not said anything.. i just finished rereading it again and it is still an amazing chronicle of the ups and downs of reef keeping and the ebbs and flows (pardon the pun) of husbandry techniques and coral preferences... amazing thread and amazing tank, Leonardo!
with the new corals, are you feeding as heavily as you used to and, you briefly mentioned the addition of a remote dsb, do you still use it for nutrient control or are you strictly using vsv, now?
 
reefmutt said:
Although i have followed this thread from the beginning, i have simply watched in awe and not said anything.. i just finished rereading it again and it is still an amazing chronicle of the ups and downs of reef keeping and the ebbs and flows (pardon the pun) of husbandry techniques and coral preferences... amazing thread and amazing tank, Leonardo!
with the new corals, are you feeding as heavily as you used to and, you briefly mentioned the addition of a remote dsb, do you still use it for nutrient control or are you strictly using vsv, now?
Click to expand...

Thanks Matt for reading my thread and the kind words. The last years my hobby really had ups and downs.
And even after 15 years of reefkeeping I still learned a lot of new things. Switching from CA reactor to Balling (again), the advantages of LED (in combination with T5), keeping the hobby fun, while keeping it challenging etc.

I noticed that Poccilopora are even more aggressive when it comes to capturing detritus and food particles than Acropora and Montipora. Besides that they like a slightly higher amount of nutrients. If you go too low the base and inside of the Pocci colonies tend to whiten and STN.


I control the nutrient level using:

Lower nutrients:

Sugar/Vinegar mixture, few drops at a time.
Wetter skimming to pull nutrients out faster.
Increase flow in GAC+GFO filter (3 tablespoons of each, flow normally about 1 liter/min)

Higher nutrients:

Feed more, especially frozen food (Artemia+Mysis).
Feed more, D&D SPS food (very small particulate food)
Higher NO3 level, using KNO3 (5 mg KNO3 per time)


I just look at the corals, especially zooxanthellae density at the base, for reasons mentioned before.

I still use two RDSB to "buffer" the nutrient spikes and drops :)

Current Equipment:

10x 39 Watt Sunpower ATI T5
20x 3 Watt CREE LED (10x White, 10x Royal Blue)
1 Tunze 6105
1 Jebao RW-15
1 Tunze 6105 (in sump)
Royal Exclusiv Bubble King Supermarine-250
Balling Method using Grotec TEC-III doser
Eheim 1260 Return Pump
D&D Fluidized bed Filter
300 Watt Jager Heater

Leonardo
 
Keeping the hobby fun and challenging can be as difficult as the hobby itself! After 20 years of reef keeping i know how you feel. When things are going beautifully, you'll do anything for the tank but when things go bad, it can be very difficult to keep one's motivation. It is amazing systems like yours that keep me motivated when things are going poorly..
Thanks for the detailed answer, Leonardo. They always lead to more questions..
I'm wondering why you've chosen vinegar and sugar for carbon source and not vodka as well.
Also, your method of nutrient control - using carbon to pull n and p down but then adding back kno3 back to properly control p is quite the balancing act, especially when you add dsbs in the mix with gfo and huge skimming... You must be testing nutrient levels??
I'm curious, you mentioned that the non acro sps need more food and nutrient rich water- what was your target n and p for keeping acros and what are your target nutrient levels with your current set up?
.. Also.. I find it interesting that you say the dsb helps 'buffer' nutrient levels.. I'd have to agree. I find that they can help reduce rapid nutrient swings or help the corals cope with nutrient swings.. I was wondering if you could explain in a bit more detail what you mean by 'buffer' nutrient spikes..
Thanks, again!
 
tripleS said:
Beautiful tank with beautiful corals
Btw is there sand in your tank
Click to expand...

Thank you, there is some sand in the right back for the wrasses :)

glaukos said:
These are some great info leonardo,thanks for sharing:)
What's your bulb combo?
Click to expand...

Thank you, Bulb combination is as following:

All ATI bulbs

Front:
Blue+
Coral Plus
Actinic
Blue+

LED's

Coral+
Actinic
Purple+
Blue+
Coral+
Blue+

Leonardo
 
reefmutt said:
Keeping the hobby fun and challenging can be as difficult as the hobby itself! After 20 years of reef keeping i know how you feel. When things are going beautifully, you'll do anything for the tank but when things go bad, it can be very difficult to keep one's motivation. It is amazing systems like yours that keep me motivated when things are going poorly..
Thanks for the detailed answer, Leonardo. They always lead to more questions..
I'm wondering why you've chosen vinegar and sugar for carbon source and not vodka as well.
Also, your method of nutrient control - using carbon to pull n and p down but then adding back kno3 back to properly control p is quite the balancing act, especially when you add dsbs in the mix with gfo and huge skimming... You must be testing nutrient levels??
I'm curious, you mentioned that the non acro sps need more food and nutrient rich water- what was your target n and p for keeping acros and what are your target nutrient levels with your current set up?
.. Also.. I find it interesting that you say the dsb helps 'buffer' nutrient levels.. I'd have to agree. I find that they can help reduce rapid nutrient swings or help the corals cope with nutrient swings.. I was wondering if you could explain in a bit more detail what you mean by 'buffer' nutrient spikes..
Thanks, again!
Click to expand...


Thanks Matt. I will try to answer all questions chronologically.

I have chosen for Vinegar (Acetic acid) and Sugar (Sucrose) because they are metabolized slower then Vodka (Ethanol). Also I noticed that they tend to darken the coral tissue a bit, when Vodka tend to bleach or "starve" the corals out. The reason for this is unknown to me, maybe the sugar directly feed the zooxanthellae and increase their numbers.

The control of the nutrients is one with many factors, I agree. I see the RDSB as a long term, slow way to control nutrients. I'm convinced that a RDSB is able to process (lower) and release (add) nutrients to the system. They denitrificate in lower regions and collect detritus and store nutrients in the upper part.

I always use GFO and GAC to adsorb organics (terpenes, colorants) and phosphates. Heavy skimming keeps bacteria levels and suspended detritus in the water column low and optimize Gas exchange.

With this aggressive nutrient export you're able to control nutrients very well because you can precisely add nutrients to the level you desire.
It starts with heavy feeding, not only the fish but the whole system. That's why I'm feeding a lot of frozen foods, artificial zoo-plankton etc.

Phosphate levels are high enough by doing that, but NO3 can use an extra push. That's why I add it using KNO3.

I aim for NO3 2 ppm, PO4 0.03 PPM. My target before was an unmeasurable NO3.

I hope this answers your questions,

Leonardo
 
Last edited:
Hi Leonardo. I've just read the whole topic that I missed in the past.
Like You, I have 15 years experience with SPS and I met most of the problems You had too.

Reading the story of Your apogon reef, I re-live many of my previous experiences and I would like, if possible to share and discuss them with You.

You guessed the main cause for crash of apogon reef was something in the water, some contaminants. But I saw other different potential causes.
In my experience, differently from what is usually adviced on this forum, too much blue light doesn't allow to get good results mainly with acros. It seems to me your tank started to decline when you shifted to all blue tubes. By the way the growth has not been fantastic also in the first year, when I think You already had too much blue light.
Me too I experienced algae growth even with low nutrients, and that occured exactly when acros began to worsen. Me too I tried big water changes thinking it was some contaminant in the water. Me too I focused all attention on producing zero conductivity Ro/DI water. Nothing helped.

Other problem maybe too low nutrients. You run an enormous skimmer in a tank which can't store nutrients (very small quantity of LR and no sand bottom). You started the tank saying it would have had +50 apogons, but I always read they were no more than 4 or 5. I think there was really too few fishes, producing too few ammonia, that added to absence of stored nutrients and big skimmer means a nearly sterile tank and corals starving.

To enforce my hypothesis about blue light, I tell You my last brief experience, which will however need a confirm. I've just started a 1200 liters net volume tank. I decided to try led and I'm using 4 radions G3 pro. I setted them as here on RC is used: 100% blue, and very lowe white, green and red, very similar to nearly all blue t5 tubes. PAR meter told me I had enough light: 150-250 mcmols on every coral.
Tank is 3 months old now. No acros have put a new tip. Some of them are dying. Many are nearly black. Stylos, montiporas and LPS are instead doing very fine. Maybe I'm wrong, but my sensation, always confirmed in my previous experience with MH and then with T5, is that acros don't like so much blue light.

Now Your tank is mostly pocci and stylo and those are blue-loving animals IMO.

What do You think? What I wrote doesn't want to be a lesson. It wants to be a starting point for an advanced discussion.

Thanks in advance for Your answer.

Luca
 
Ink said:
Hi Leonardo. I've just read the whole topic that I missed in the past.
Like You, I have 15 years experience with SPS and I met most of the problems You had too.

Reading the story of Your apogon reef, I re-live many of my previous experiences and I would like, if possible to share and discuss them with You.

You guessed the main cause for crash of apogon reef was something in the water, some contaminants. But I saw other different potential causes.
In my experience, differently from what is usually adviced on this forum, too much blue light doesn't allow to get good results mainly with acros. It seems to me your tank started to decline when you shifted to all blue tubes. By the way the growth has not been fantastic also in the first year, when I think You already had too much blue light.
Me too I experienced algae growth even with low nutrients, and that occured exactly when acros began to worsen. Me too I tried big water changes thinking it was some contaminant in the water. Me too I focused all attention on producing zero conductivity Ro/DI water. Nothing helped.

Other problem maybe too low nutrients. You run an enormous skimmer in a tank which can't store nutrients (very small quantity of LR and no sand bottom). You started the tank saying it would have had +50 apogons, but I always read they were no more than 4 or 5. I think there was really too few fishes, producing too few ammonia, that added to absence of stored nutrients and big skimmer means a nearly sterile tank and corals starving.

To enforce my hypothesis about blue light, I tell You my last brief experience, which will however need a confirm. I've just started a 1200 liters net volume tank. I decided to try led and I'm using 4 radions G3 pro. I setted them as here on RC is used: 100% blue, and very lowe white, green and red, very similar to nearly all blue t5 tubes. PAR meter told me I had enough light: 150-250 mcmols on every coral.
Tank is 3 months old now. No acros have put a new tip. Some of them are dying. Many are nearly black. Stylos, montiporas and LPS are instead doing very fine. Maybe I'm wrong, but my sensation, always confirmed in my previous experience with MH and then with T5, is that acros don't like so much blue light.

Now Your tank is mostly pocci and stylo and those are blue-loving animals IMO.

What do You think? What I wrote doesn't want to be a lesson. It wants to be a starting point for an advanced discussion.

Thanks in advance for Your answer.

Luca
Click to expand...

Hello Luca,

Looking back I think I can point several causes for the decline of the wildcap colonies.
First, I had AEFW. Other then that I think a Potassium shortage can be the cause for the tissue problems.
I have to disagree with you about blue light and Deepwater Acropora. The growth the fist years were very good, I propagated dinnerplate shaped deepwater acropora, as you can see in the middle front of the previous tank. All under blue light.
Coral like A. humilis and A. millepora tend to do better under full spectrum, whiter light but corals like A. granulosa, A. loripes, A. lokani etc really do better in dimmer, blue light.
I don't have many experience with Blue LED only, but I think the spectrum of them is much narrower then blue T5 only or blue MH. I've seen tanks flourish under Radiums and Phoenix MH bulbs.

I also don't think a shortage of nutrients can be the cause. Something in the rock was fueling the algae, they didn't grew anywhere else (frag plugs etc.).
Although I didn't have many fish, a large skimmer and many, big water changes and a BB tank, it only gave me CONTROL over the nutrients. Which means I kept the nutrients on the level I desired by importing nutrients using fine foods, AA etc. I never let the corals starve :)

Leonardo
 
Leonardo_ said:
Coral like A. humilis and A. millepora tend to do better under full spectrum, whiter light but corals like A. granulosa, A. loripes, A. lokani etc really do better in dimmer, blue light.

Leonardo
Click to expand...

Hi Leonardo,

I have been following your threads for a long time. I am fascinated with your set ups and the way your corals look. You are an inspiration to me.

I am not as experienced as you are. I would like to double check with you about what you said above. My reading suggests that not all smooth skinned acroporids are deep water corals. For example, according to Veron, Acropora lokani and in some cases (depending on the collection point) Acropora loripes are found in shallow reef environments. Does this not indicate that these corals require high intensity light with balanced light spectrum?

In my own tank, I have three smooth skinned Acroporas. One of which requires fairly dimmed conditions (~250-300 mmol) and two of them require high light intensity. I believe they are Acropora loripes and Acropora lokani. They do not show good coloration unless I increase the PAR beyond 400 mmol. Otherwise, they look brown. I have 5 blue + and 3 Coral + in my ATI Powermodule.

Regards

Bulent
 
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