Long-term Ich Management

[125mph]

This is a very true statement. You can have low level ich in a tank for years- 5-10 or more without any outbreak- but when you add a stress like a temp drop etc-It will be swift in overcoming the fish.

So basically, you're saying ich will live in the tank indefinitely and will multiple at low rates.. You may get a few spots here and there on the fish but it wont be a full on outbreak? Obviously the ich has to multiple and attach to fish even at minimal rates otherwise after 10-12 weeks, they will all be dead.

Sounds like a recipe for disaster, like humble said, a chain of event that causes stress will induce a huge outbreak.

 

[HumbleFish]

Not doubting necessarily that this is true (and there are many good reasons to not medicate the display), but I wonder if there have been any studies on this? I always used to hear that tanks that had been used with copper were verboten for inverts, yet I have done it many times (tanks got a good cleaning though).

I have no doubt that enough copper can be pulled out of the water to make a tank reef safe again. Doing WCs, and running carbon, cuprisorb, poly filters, etc. works wonders.

The problem is the rock/sand; the "X factor" if you will. How long will both continue to leach out copper until it stops? I doubt any studies have been done on that. Personally, I've gone so far as pulling all the rocks out and giving them an acid bath to get all the copper out. Probably overkill on my part, but unexplained livestock causalities drive me crazy!

 

[syrinx]

So basically, you're saying ich will live in the tank indefinitely and will multiple at low rates.. You may get a few spots here and there on the fish but it wont be a full on outbreak? Obviously the ich has to multiple and attach to fish even at minimal rates otherwise after 10-12 weeks, they will all be dead.

Sounds like a recipe for disaster, like humble said, a chain of event that causes stress will induce a huge outbreak.

Yes it can be a recipe for disaster-I have seen tanks with no fish additions for 5 or 10 years get wiped out from ich outbreaks after power loss for a few days or major temp drop. However I do have fish that are 14 to 22 years old that are in tanks that have had ich and no treatment.

I always recommend QT- but after that good husbandry rules. Paul B has the oldest reef, and I likely have one of the highest numbers of fish over 15yrs old, and that is because we have found a balance to our systems. That is what needs to be developed-clean fish in a good enviorment.

With all that said, I believe that many tanks that have been treated or ran fallow do have ich in them. Of course I cannot prove this- nor can the people that say otherwise. The only way to definitively know would be take the entire contents of the tank rock and all- liquify it and test for DNA. Or of course wait until a disaster makes it appear!

QT QT QT

 

[syrinx]

I have no doubt that enough copper can be pulled out of the water to make a tank coral/invert safe again. Doing WCs, and running carbon, cuprisorb, poly filters, etc. works wonders.

The problem is the rock/sand; the "X factor" if you will. How long will both continue to leach out copper until it stops? I doubt any studies have been done on that. Personally, I've gone so far as pulling all the rocks out and giving them an acid bath to get all the copper out. Probably overkill on my part, but unexplained livestock causalities drive me crazy!

This is key= rock is not like a sponge where it absorbes water and then it can drip out. Rock adsorbs copper, and there needs to be something to break that chemical bind for it to be released. That being said-an invert that is directly on the rock may be able to produce something to break the adsorbtion,allowing the invert to absorb it.

 

[ca1ore]

This is key= rock is not like a sponge where it absorbes water and then it can drip out. Rock adsorbs copper, and there needs to be something to break that chemical bind for it to be released.

Not to be pedantic, but how do you know? Also not suggesting it's 'made up', just that there is a lot of techno-babble around and it can be difficult sometimes to separate fact from speculation.

 

[syrinx]

I do not know- randy on the chemistry section could explain the technical aspects. You are certainly right to question my opinion on this- but from a chemistry standpoint the concept of adsobtion and absorbtion should be looked into. The general thinking is that copper is adsorbed, in which case it would take something to break this bond.

 

[ca1ore]

I do not know- randy on the chemistry section could explain the technical aspects. You are certainly right to question my opinion on this- but from a chemistry standpoint the concept of adsobtion and absorbtion should be looked into. The general thinking is that copper is adsorbed, in which case it would take something to break this bond.

No, I'm inclined to agree and think that you are correct, however, a friend of mine has a huge ich problem in his reef and I am trying to talk him out of treating the display ..... and he keeps asking me for 'proof'. Oy!

 

[syrinx]

No problem- and add me to the list that says DO NOT TREAT THE DISPLAY!

 

[triggreef]

What kinds of things are typically misdiagnosed as ich?

I've said this in a few different threads now, but I attended a conference a while back with a veteran marine biologist speaking about disease and quarantining ect. In a study she (or someone else who she quoted) conducted, there was an average of 37 different parasites per fish that was collected. That number includes internal and external parasites. That said I QT everything now, however I do things different than others mostly because I am that impatient guy.

I had ich in my display and did an 8 week fallow period only to have it come back again. I then repeated that fallow and extended to 12 weeks. That was about 4 months ago and I'm pretty sure it is now beaten.

In my FOWLR tank, I have dosed cupramine for a 6 week period. Ich was seemingly gone. After reading 0 copper for a long time I put some corals back in, only colt coral as that is all my puffer wont eat so far. Corals did fine. Ich came back. I've actually started dosing cupramine in that tank again. This time left 2 small colt coral pieces in there. Those are bullet proof and are still alive. somewhat balled up but alive and I'm sure they will come back when the cupramine is removed. I'm about 8 weeks in on this treatment now, but I'm going to keep it in there til the end of January this time in case theres any stragglers. Also believe it or not, even though I've maintained a full .05 or better, there are still crabs and pods in my tank and fuge.

My point being with this, it can take ich 12 weeks to hatch from its cyst. Thats why the suggested fallow period is 12 weeks. So if your treating with cupramine or similar, you can treat for 4 weeks if your going to remove the fish from the treatment tank while they are still in full copper. If not, then I would keep them in copper longer, like 12 weeks. Copper can only kill ich after the cyst form hatches and prior to infecting the fish. It's a small window.


Let me be clear, I'm not advocating or suggesting those methods, simply sharing the experience.

I also read a thread a while back that the poster claimed to have cured ich in his reef. He claimed to use about 5 times the suggested amount of UV sterilization.

Either way, good luck.

 

[HumbleFish]

No, I'm inclined to agree and think that you are correct, however, a friend of mine has a huge ich problem in his reef and I am trying to talk him out of treating the display ..... and he keeps asking me for 'proof'. Oy!

Proof & facts are hard to come by in this hobby - while opinions are aplenty!

Let's take going fallow for Ich, for example. Some say 8 weeks, 10 weeks, 72 days, etc. I say 72 days only because in one study I read that, "theronts were not released until 72 days after initial tomont formation".

But that was just one study, done on one strain of Ich. Who knows how many different strains of Ich exist and how their life cycles may vary? If even just slightly?

The problem is there is very little money to be made studying/eradicating fish parasites. That is why more than 50 years on, copper is still considered the #1 treatment. Why even look for a "cure" when even the aquafarming industry wouldn't be able to afford it due to sheer volume of fish they deal in?

OK, I'm getting a little off-topic, but I trust you see my point. Tell your friend we are mostly on our own here and have only each other's anecdotal accounts to go by. The scientific community has very little interest in figuring out whether or not rocks absorb copper and for how long.

 

[ca1ore]

OK, I'm getting a little off-topic, but I trust you see my point. Tell your friend we are mostly on our own here and have only each other's anecdotal accounts to go by. The scientific community has very little interest in figuring out whether or not rocks absorb copper and for how long.

I generally just use the 'top people are studying it ..... TOP PEOPLE' line from the first Indianna Jones movie :lol: Apologies for hijacking the thread.

 

[syrinx]

I have asked a chemistry expert to respond to this thread as to the copper/rock issue. As my sig says- I am always learning- thats because I am always WILLING to learn!

 

[disc1]

This is key= rock is not like a sponge where it absorbes water and then it can drip out. Rock adsorbs copper, and there needs to be something to break that chemical bind for it to be released. That being said-an invert that is directly on the rock may be able to produce something to break the adsorbtion,allowing the invert to absorb it.

The adsorption of copper into the aragonite crystal is an equilibrium process. There are no covalent bonds being created, it's just that the copper likes being in the aragonite crystal. So there are no bonds to be broken.

At any given concentration of copper the copper ions are constantly hopping on and off the aragonite lattice. The rates of on and off are different, with the on rate being much faster. So the end result is that some of the copper gets held in the rock.

Now you come with new water with no copper in it. This greatly speeds up the process of copper coming off the rock and slows down the process of it becoming adsorbed. Look up LeChatlier's principle and equilibrium chemistry for a more thorough explanation of that.

The end of the story is that this process like all equilibrium processes is reversible. So yes, your rock will release some measure of copper back into the water if the concentration of copper in the water is lower than it was when the copper adsorbed onto the rock.

 

[syrinx]

Thank you so very much. So many topics that are raised in other forums, are easily answered by the experts in the chemistry forum.

 

[Deinonych]

The adsorption of copper into the aragonite crystal is an equilibrium process. There are no covalent bonds being created, it's just that the copper likes being in the aragonite crystal. So there are no bonds to be broken.

At any given concentration of copper the copper ions are constantly hopping on and off the aragonite lattice. The rates of on and off are different, with the on rate being much faster. So the end result is that some of the copper gets held in the rock.

Now you come with new water with no copper in it. This greatly speeds up the process of copper coming off the rock and slows down the process of it becoming adsorbed. Look up LeChatlier's principle and equilibrium chemistry for a more thorough explanation of that.

The end of the story is that this process like all equilibrium processes is reversible. So yes, your rock will release some measure of copper back into the water if the concentration of copper in the water is lower than it was when the copper adsorbed onto the rock.

Best explanation of the process I've read. Thank you so much.

 

[HumbleFish]

Now you come with new water with no copper in it. This greatly speeds up the process of copper coming off the rock and slows down the process of it becoming adsorbed. Look up LeChatlier's principle and equilibrium chemistry for a more thorough explanation of that.

The end of the story is that this process like all equilibrium processes is reversible. So yes, your rock will release some measure of copper back into the water if the concentration of copper in the water is lower than it was when the copper adsorbed onto the rock.

OK, so let's say you used copper in a DT with rock & sand. After you're finished, you run a poly filter to remove all the copper from the tank. You keep changing out the poly filter until it remains consistently white. As long as it continues to stay white, how long would you have to wait until you could definitely say copper is done coming off the rocks & sand?

 

[disc1]

OK, so let's say you used copper in a DT with rock & sand. After you're finished, you run a poly filter to remove all the copper from the tank. You keep changing out the poly filter until it remains consistently white. As long as it continues to stay white, how long would you have to wait until you could definitely say copper is done coming off the rocks & sand?

You were doing OK until the word definitely. You can never be 100% quantitative about it. And there are other things that affect that solubility number and will cause the copper to start coming out, things like pH and temperature among others.

You can do what you suggest and try to clean a tank of copper, but at the first sign of problems with any inverts it will have to be your first guess as to what's wrong.

The other problem is that when you are dosing in the copper, the rock is soaking it up. So to get to therapeutic levels you have to sort of saturate the rock. This makes for the worst possible scenario in trying to clean it back up.

best bet is to use copper in a separate tank with nothing but maybe a few PVC pieces or something for the fish to hide in.

 

[HumbleFish]

You were doing OK until the word definitely. You can never be 100% quantitative about it. And there are other things that affect that solubility number and will cause the copper to start coming out, things like pH and temperature among others.

You can do what you suggest and try to clean a tank of copper, but at the first sign of problems with any inverts it will have to be your first guess as to what's wrong.

The other problem is that when you are dosing in the copper, the rock is soaking it up. So to get to therapeutic levels you have to sort of saturate the rock. This makes for the worst possible scenario in trying to clean it back up.

best bet is to use copper in a separate tank with nothing but maybe a few PVC pieces or something for the fish to hide in.

Thank you. That's just what I expected to hear. :thumbsup:

 

[ca1ore]

So I guess we're back where we started. I should have just kept my mouth shut

 

[HumbleFish]

So I guess we're back where we started. I should have just kept my mouth shut

We're always back to where we started. That's my whole point. :lmao: