Lots of talk here lately about Chloramines in our water

From speaking to a buddy of mine that is a RO specialist, brs, and buckeye field supply; I've come to the conclusion that if there are any chloramines whatsoever, a different type of carbon needs to be run. For lower levels, a catalytic carbon is fine. For higher levels, it's best to run a canister of catalytic carbon and a pentek chlorplus block. Your standard carbon can remove chloramines but it will depleted quickly which can lead to damaging the membrane.

Thats simply not true. Remember - these people at BRS and Buckeye are in the business of upselling you and maximizing their profits - not in the business of science.

If you were to google catalytic carbon - every page returned is for some company that manufacturers these blocks. It's all marketing. Its not science.

So what's the science behind these carbon blocks? They don't filter out chloramines. they don't fill up with chloramines. They break apart chloramines into chlorine and ammonia - which is then processed by your RO membrane and the final DI resin stage.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-11/rhf/feature/
In the case of a reverse osmosis/deionizing system (where carbon is usually part of the prefiltration prior to the RO membrane), the ammonia is partially removed by the reverse osmosis system. The extent of removal by the RO membrane depends on pH. At pH 7.5 or lower, reverse osmosis will remove ammonia from 1.4 ppm-Cl monochloramine to less than 0.1 ppm ammonia. The DI resin then removes any residual ammonia to levels unimportant to an aquarist.

a 5 stage RO/DI with two well made (i.e. made in USA) 0.1 micron carbon blocks and a DI stage should remove all the chloramines. Regular maintenance, monitoring and knowledge of your system are critical to this discussion.

When your DI starts to change color (non-color changing starts to look like coffee or color changing blue changes to brown) - it's time to change out the DI. If you get less and less usage out of the DI - then it's time to change out the filters. Anything over 0 TDS in your output of the DI is unacceptable.
 
thanks for linking that article. Thank god for Randy.

Thought I would post the summary for those with ADD or kids to take care of:

1. Most RO/DI systems seem capable of removing chloramine adequately for aquarists.
2. The carbon cartridge may become less useful over time, and it is possible that the chloramine removal effectiveness of a system may be lost before the DI appears to need changing.
3. Cheap sediment cartridges may expose the carbon cartridge to unnecessary fouling, which may permit chloramine to pass through the system. Cartridges should be replaced as soon as the pressure drops significantly, even if RO/DI water is still being produced at a reasonable rate or purity as measured by total dissolved solids.
4. Testing for chlorine and chloramine is easy, so any concern is easily reconciled.
5. One Hach kit provides several dozen test results. Our local Boston Club bought some kits and had a "water testing day." The kits can also become part of the "library" of a local club for aquarists to use once in a while to see if their systems are functioning. That way, the cost to each aquarist is minimal.
 
Just went to the hach website, they have a monochlorimine analyzer for only $16,548.00:fun4:

The handheld portable colorimeters will also test for monochlorimines, they are around $1200 new though I've seen some on ebay used for about $300. The portable units will also test for other things (ph, phos, nitrate...etc)

I remember seeing at the tank hop, first stop (living color?) they were using a handheld portable colorimeter. Not sure I can justify the cost of purchasing one of these.:rollface:
 
Just went to the hach website, they have a monochlorimine analyzer for only $16,548.00:fun4:

The handheld portable colorimeters will also test for monochlorimines, they are around $1200 new though I've seen some on ebay used for about $300. The portable units will also test for other things (ph, phos, nitrate...etc)

I remember seeing at the tank hop, first stop (living color?) they were using a handheld portable colorimeter. Not sure I can justify the cost of purchasing one of these.:rollface:

Hey Doc- lets each order one so we can get a discount on shipping. ;)
 
Reefs- you can go to whatever municipality web page you live in. Its require public record


Thanks for the direction! This is an excerpt from miami dade water & sewer web site.

"Miami-Dade Water and Sewer Department to Change Water Chlorination Method for Two-Week Period


(MIAMI, November 1, 2013) – The Miami-Dade Water and Sewer Department (WASD) will change its method of chlorination at each of its regional water treatment facilities for two weeks, beginning Monday, November 4th and ending Sunday, November 17th. Specifically, free chlorine, instead of the standard combined chlorine (chloramine) will be used during the treatment process."

So i would assume they use chloramine regularly.
 
Jim- i really appreciate you taking the time to help us out here in South Florida. We briefly met in Dallas MACNA a few years ago at the hotel. Hope you enjoyed this last one. Our group put it together. I was too busy running around as one of the organizers so didnt see you guys here.

A few questions and comments.

You say change filters earlier if <50psi. Where is this measured? I have a guage at the input into the whole unit. Should I/ we be putting a guage at the input to the RO?

No i only did ONE test of my ro/di water. But, i JUST did a second and third test and got ZERO pink. Interesting.

Yes Jim- i also have seen memos and advisories from local municipalities of them "shocking" their systems. So it is pretty common down here.

Again thanks for helping us out with your expertise. For folks like us, what package do you recommend from your products that will give us a long lasting (im fine with 6 months) result? I cant remember the kit a bought from you 2 months ago, other than it was one of your chloramine kits.

Regards,
Eddie

Eddie we did briefly talk at your MACNA but you head was spinning, by the way you guys did a great job that we be hard to beat!!

I did a little research and here is what shocking involves, we always knew they switched back and forth between chloramines and chlorine but didn't know it was for a purpose.

Why does our water provider change back to chlorine as the disinfectant every spring while the water mains are flushed?

Every year for approximately six weeks, we switch disinfectants from chloramine back to chlorine to flush out the water distribution system and improve water quality. A biological film, known as biofilm, is found in all water pipes and can lead to water quality problems if not controlled. Biofilm can become accustomed to the chloramine disinfectant that is routinely used. By switching to free chlorine for a short period of time, the biofilm is "œshocked" and weakened. Using fire hydrants to conduct a systemwide flushing of our distribution mains, combined with the disinfectant change, is a very effective method for controlling biofilm; this process is used nationwide.
Some utilities in warmer climates, as part of their normal operating procedure, will perform a temporary super-chlorination (or shock) of their water systems to wash out any residue or biofilm.

Biofilm Control
The characteristics of the source water often have a direct impact on the tendency to form biofilms. Ground water sources tend to contain iron or sulfur reducing bacteria that can become attached to sites within the distribution system, where they form a tubercule. The tubercule will tend to capture nutrients and consume chlorine residual. Nitrifying bacteria can then form an outer layer over the reducing bacteria. Nitrifying bacteria include
nitrosomas, which convert ammonia to nitrite. Excess free ammonia in the system will accelerate this process, whether the excess ammonia is from natural sources or liberated from chloramine as a result of chlorine consumption by reducing bacteria and other microbial contaminants. Ammonia oxidizing bacteria produce organic by products, which can then support an additional heterotrophic layer attached to the tubercule site. These heterotrophic bacteria include pseudomonas, coliforms, fungi, and actinomyces. When heterotrops become established, disinfectant residual can rapidly become exhausted.

Surface waters can also contribute iron or sulfur reducing bacteria or nitrifying bacteria that can become attached to distribution surfaces. Because surface water is more likely to be chloraminated, oxidizing bacteria have a readily available source of ammonia and can easily become established without initial assistance from reducing bacteria tubercule.
2
If heterotrops become established, a shock of high concentration free chlorine exposure may be required to eliminate the biofilm.

I see a lot of misguided information being passed here but I can't keep posting as RC will remove my posts and put me on notice because I am a business and sponsor.

Jim
 
Eddie we did briefly talk at your MACNA but you head was spinning, by the way you guys did a great job that we be hard to beat!!

I did a little research and here is what shocking involves, we always knew they switched back and forth between chloramines and chlorine but didn't know it was for a purpose.

Why does our water provider change back to chlorine as the disinfectant every spring while the water mains are flushed?

Every year for approximately six weeks, we switch disinfectants from chloramine back to chlorine to flush out the water distribution system and improve water quality. A biological film, known as biofilm, is found in all water pipes and can lead to water quality problems if not controlled. Biofilm can become accustomed to the chloramine disinfectant that is routinely used. By switching to free chlorine for a short period of time, the biofilm is “shocked” and weakened. Using fire hydrants to conduct a systemwide flushing of our distribution mains, combined with the disinfectant change, is a very effective method for controlling biofilm; this process is used nationwide.
Some utilities in warmer climates, as part of their normal operating procedure, will perform a temporary super-chlorination (or shock) of their water systems to wash out any residue or biofilm.

Biofilm Control
The characteristics of the source water often have a direct impact on the tendency to form biofilms. Ground water sources tend to contain iron or sulfur reducing bacteria that can become attached to sites within the distribution system, where they form a tubercule. The tubercule will tend to capture nutrients and consume chlorine residual. Nitrifying bacteria can then form an outer layer over the reducing bacteria. Nitrifying bacteria include
nitrosomas, which convert ammonia to nitrite. Excess free ammonia in the system will accelerate this process, whether the excess ammonia is from natural sources or liberated from chloramine as a result of chlorine consumption by reducing bacteria and other microbial contaminants. Ammonia oxidizing bacteria produce organic by products, which can then support an additional heterotrophic layer attached to the tubercule site. These heterotrophic bacteria include pseudomonas, coliforms, fungi, and actinomyces. When heterotrops become established, disinfectant residual can rapidly become exhausted.

Surface waters can also contribute iron or sulfur reducing bacteria or nitrifying bacteria that can become attached to distribution surfaces. Because surface water is more likely to be chloraminated, oxidizing bacteria have a readily available source of ammonia and can easily become established without initial assistance from reducing bacteria tubercule.
2
If heterotrops become established, a shock of high concentration free chlorine exposure may be required to eliminate the biofilm.

I see a lot of misguided information being passed here but I can't keep posting as RC will remove my posts and put me on notice because I am a business and sponsor.

Jim

Jim- Again, thank you. And yes my head was spinning during our MACNA for 3 days as was my whole groups, sorry :facepalm:

I understand you cant discuss much in an effort to meet RC's commercial rules. I also dont care to disrespect RC's rules. I would appreciate though if you can clarify one of your statements that will help many of us on RC that has nothing to do with commerce on the site.

When you stated that filters should be changed when PSI drops <50psi, WHERE exactly is this being measured? I feel that by monitoring psi at the entrance of the whole unit only tells us what is happening at the point of entry from the city/county. It has nothing to do with the ro/di units efficiency. Are you saying, and IMHO it would make sense that it also be monitored at the entrance of the membrane???

If that is the case, lets say into unit its 50psi, and into ro is 40. should we not expect a certain drop in the sediment and carbon blocks? Where is the line drawn?
 
Yes Eddie that is correct ....to get a true measurement of the efficiency you need to have a gauge right before the ro membrane so you know the pressure going in .....look here to the right of my main unit and you will see the second gauge on the far right ....one gauge tells the measurement going in and the other allows the dialing in of the booster pump and also a marker for knowing how the efficiency of the pre filters are affecting things prior to entering the RO membrane....

<a href="http://s17.photobucket.com/user/mrx66699/media/rodi_zpse4e83a1b.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/mrx66699/rodi_zpse4e83a1b.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo rodi_zpse4e83a1b.jpg"/></a>
 
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Yes Eddie that is correct ....to get a true measurement of the efficiency you need to have a gauge right before the ro membrane so you know the pressure going in .....look here to the right of my main unit and you will see the second gauge on the far right ....one gauge tells the measurement going in and the other allows the dialing in of the booster pump and also a marker for knowing how the efficiency of the pre filters are affecting things prior to entering the RO membrane....

<a href="http://s17.photobucket.com/user/mrx66699/media/rodi_zpse4e83a1b.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/mrx66699/rodi_zpse4e83a1b.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo rodi_zpse4e83a1b.jpg"/></a>

Got it. thanks Matt

What do you have in the other 2 cannisters, bottom right?
 
Got it. thanks Matt

What do you have in the other 2 cannisters, bottom right?

There are 3 cannisters on the bottom right and 4 on the main unit.....

in order from start to finish

10 MICRON PURTREX SEDIMENT FILTER>>>
5 MICRON PURTREX SEDIMENT FILTER>>>
1 MICRON PURTREX SEDIMENT FILTER>>>

CATALYTIC ACTIVATED CARBON>>>
CHLORPLUS 10 CARBON BLOCK>>>
Booster Pump>>>
99 Percent Rejection SpectraSelect Plus 90-GPD RO Membrane 1>>>
99 Percent Rejection SpectraSelect Plus 90-GPD RO Membrane 2>>>
DI 1
DI 2

this is how it was hooked up when I moved into my new DT from the old ...I had cracked one of the RO canisters when I moved it and went back to just 1 RO but since have purchased another to reset it up for processing of the waste to get a better efficiency out of water consumption....I was using a 150 gpd and now am going back to the 2 new spectraselects plus 90s
 
There are 3 cannisters on the bottom right and 4 on the main unit.....

in order from start to finish

10 MICRON PURTREX SEDIMENT FILTER>>>
5 MICRON PURTREX SEDIMENT FILTER>>>
1 MICRON PURTREX SEDIMENT FILTER>>>

CATALYTIC ACTIVATED CARBON>>>
CHLORPLUS 10 CARBON BLOCK>>>
Booster Pump>>>
99 Percent Rejection SpectraSelect Plus 90-GPD RO Membrane 1>>>
99 Percent Rejection SpectraSelect Plus 90-GPD RO Membrane 2>>>
DI 1
DI 2

this is how it was hooked up when I moved into my new DT from the old ...I had cracked one of the RO canisters when I moved it and went back to just 1 RO but since have purchased another to reset it up for processing of the waste to get a better efficiency out of water consumption....I was using a 150 gpd and now am going back to the 2 new spectraselects plus 90s

HOLY COW!!! 10 step RO/DI. No wonder your not dealing with the issues us villagers down in the slums are dealing with.....:debi:
 
No waste water goes into the in of a 2nd RO and waste is reprocessed again before it is dumped .....now keep in mind that the 2nd RO membrane will be reprocessing a high concentrate of tds and will ware out sooner than projected life span but you will get more efficiency out of your DI and less overall water is wasted...
 
HOLY COW!!! 10 step RO/DI. No wonder your not dealing with the issues us villagers down in the slums are dealing with.....:debi:

Its only 9 but keep in mind its double DI and double RO......more efficient DI less waste water = lower over all cost

booster pump just allows the prim pressure for the most efficiency out of the RO membranes

big tip for overall production and efficiency of an RODI unit also is to actually use the FLUSH KIT every single time you use the unit......RO membrane and DI will increase in efficiency and life span....
 
Jim- Again, thank you. And yes my head was spinning during our MACNA for 3 days as was my whole groups, sorry :facepalm:

I understand you cant discuss much in an effort to meet RC's commercial rules. I also dont care to disrespect RC's rules. I would appreciate though if you can clarify one of your statements that will help many of us on RC that has nothing to do with commerce on the site.

When you stated that filters should be changed when PSI drops <50psi, WHERE exactly is this being measured? I feel that by monitoring psi at the entrance of the whole unit only tells us what is happening at the point of entry from the city/county. It has nothing to do with the ro/di units efficiency. Are you saying, and IMHO it would make sense that it also be monitored at the entrance of the membrane???

If that is the case, lets say into unit its 50psi, and into ro is 40. should we not expect a certain drop in the sediment and carbon blocks? Where is the line drawn?

You want to measure the pressure after the water leaves the filters before it enters the membrane. Usually the filters produce about a 5# pressure drop when filters are new.

Most municipal water systems shoot for a household pressure of 50-80 psi. Filmtec membranes operate at 50 psi or higher pressure, other brands usually operate at 60-65 psi best. If the pressure is under 50 psi, say in the 30 -40 psi range a booster pump is recommended for best operating pressure. Since your water is warmer a little under 50 psi may be OK, our winter water temp drops down to 42 degrees so our production drops way down.

When the carbon breaks down from chloramines the pressure starts to drop off and we usually start to see it at about six months and earlier if your producing large amounts of water. As a generally rule of thumb we recommend a filter change at six months to be safe and keep your water quality high. Remember the RO membrane is operating poorly with pressure in the 30-40 psi range for Filmtec, and worse for other brands.

Jim
 
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