macro vs ats for export?

[Seakrait]

I have been using large macro fuges for several years now with good success. I have used and still use many types of macro ranging from chaeto to gracilaria to ulva to caulerpa. I am in the process of building a fish breeding system in my garage. I was wondering if with the large bioload an ats would be a better choice than a very large macro fuge. My plan was to stick with a large macro fuge then if my phosphate and nitrate are detectable add an ats. Thoughts? There will be a large skimmer as well as carbon, gfo and poly filter used as needed. No flaming please. If you dont run an ats please hold your opinion.

 

[ericarenee]

The ATS Is in the chamber all the way to the left of the fuge tall section..

View attachment 324134I Run a Huge fuge 1/3 size of my Display With Caulerpa and Chato as well as a Large ATS .. I Added the fuge and ats at the same time about a year ago when i was having thru the roof Nitrate above test kit ability. Very sure it was leaching from reusing dry live rock..
I have also been running a OLD TYPE Venturi skimmer that just never seemed to adjust correctly..But i really thought it was working. This skimmer started leaking badly again like 6 weeks ago and Decided to just replace it.. So with new skimmer skimz sm 201 hooked up AND Dialed in Correctly I noticed my ATS Was not producing the Algae it was . Never really linked it to the new skimmer..
As of now the Algae on the ats screen almost totally gone Died off withered away... MY Nitrated and phosphates are still gone.. NO Other algae growth that could be stealing nutrients from the ats. So its gotta be the more efficient skimmer .
I ALWAYS Thought the ATS Was a place for the algae to grow and keep it from the tank. I am starting to rethink that.... Not positive its the skimmer or growth in the fuge.
So to answer your question.... I would do fuge and ATS. with skimmer and CARBON and only add gfo if you see a need... If you start the fuge and let it grow with the tank I think is the most healthy environment.. Here is a image of MY Sump Setup...

 

[Seakrait]

That makes perfect sense. I tend to think that the macro fuge and skimmer work hand in hand. The macro release sugars and dissolved organic componds that the skimmer removes. Im not sure if bacteria feed on these sugars and doc and function like dosing carbon does, but it would appear that way. I think I will try the ats after the macro fuge is established, only if there are detectable nitrates and phosphates. The bad part is I like to use caulerpa racemosa as it out grows every other macro including chaeto. No one wants to trade for racemosa because they are afraid of it lol. Im not sure why as every herbivore I own eats it.

 

[Raoul5Duke]

I have used both previously and went with a larger ATS on my newest tank as I think it serves the same purpose, takes up less space and is used as a food sources for herbivores & pods. Just personal preference.

 

[ca1ore]

I suppose simplistically, 1/3 of the organics are removed by the skimmer before they have a chance to breakdown; the remaining 2/3 end up as nitrates and phosphates. Many ways to then deal with these, including chemical media, water changes or assimilation into plant tissues. Consequently, I think the skimmer and some kind of algae filtration makes a lot of sense. How much you need, and how well they balance is dependent on a number if varying factors; not the least of which is the amount you feed your tank. Personally, I run a large skimmer, an ATS sized to 10 cube-equivalents/day and maintain a large ball of chaeto.

 

[OurLifeAquatic]

This is my first post, so HELLO WORLD! On to the topic at hand...
Another option would be carbon dosing. Less time consuming, less space taken up, and puts a little more power into your skimmer's hands. I love using ATS and the other forms of using macros as a means of nutrient export, but if this is for a breeding set-up (especially if you have the intention of making it a commercial operation) I would go with a carbon source, reverse daylight cheato tumbler to help with PH swings/additional export, and run air stones at night if necessary. If you are looking to breed animals that require a constant source of copepods etc, ignore this post and maybe go with a large macro algae set-up with DSB/Mud. If you're trying to breed any type of surgeon throw a DE filter on there as well to help with HLLE in your broodstock. Just my two cents.

 

[ericarenee]

This is my first post, so HELLO WORLD! On to the topic at hand...
Another option would be carbon dosing. Less time consuming, less space taken up, and puts a little more power into your skimmer's hands. I love using ATS and the other forms of using macros as a means of nutrient export, but if this is for a breeding set-up (especially if you have the intention of making it a commercial operation) I would go with a carbon source, reverse daylight cheato tumbler to help with PH swings/additional export, and run air stones at night if necessary. If you are looking to breed animals that require a constant source of copepods etc, ignore this post and maybe go with a large macro algae set-up with DSB/Mud. If you're trying to breed any type of surgeon throw a DE filter on there as well to help with HLLE in your broodstock. Just my two cents.

The thing with carbon dosing you are kinda putting your tank on the edge... And relying on a piece of mechanical equipment.If your skimmer fails and you do not get it replaced Right away your likely to have a Cyano or other Bacteria / Algae outbreak......

Thou i do run a nice big skimmer. I believe my Refugium and ATS capable of almost maintaining my TANK Without the Skimmer..Not something I am willing to try..

So my opinion is If you have room why not use a combination The ocean is not cleaned by Current skimming alone Why should we expect it to take care of our tanks... In a under the tank sump i know Large skimmer and Chemical filtration is prob the only real viable solution as A Fuge to do any good will be huge..... I know this From experience with mine.... Some day soon i am going to add another Refugium

YEA I Had a bad experience with Carbon dosing... But to be fare i had high nitrates at the time so i think Carbon dosing can work to maintain low levels. Just not so great to start when you already have a issue.. The opposite can be said for ATS AND Fuge .. high nutrient levels help kick start them....

Just my two pennies thou i know they are NOT Worth much around here...
Welcome to Reef Central... We are almost neighbors in terms of the size of the planet.....

 

[OurLifeAquatic]

I agree that using algae and skimmers together as a means of transport is a great idea, especially for a display tank. I'm with you on trying to emulate the ocean as much as possible. The only reason I suggested carbon was because breeding projects can be a lot of work without the constant need to be harvesting algae/worrying about another large piece of filtration that might not be necessary. Then again, ATS and fuges are certainly a more natural approach, and you're so right that carbon can be a dangerous beast if you're not careful. Like most things reef related, I think it's all about comfort level and how much time/money you have on your hands.

And yes, we are practically neighbors! I used to spend 6+ months per year in Nashville so I was driving through Louisville all the time! I was never able to spend a great deal of time there, but I did enjoy the BBQ

 

[ca1ore]

Thou i do run a nice big skimmer. I believe my Refugium and ATS capable of almost maintaining my TANK Without the Skimmer..Not something I am willing to try.

I have this debate with myself all the time. Unfortunately me, myself and I have been unable to reach consensus :lol: I'm not brave enough to remove the skimmer, though I suspect I could ......

 

[ericarenee]

I have this debate with myself all the time. Unfortunately me, myself and I have been unable to reach consensus [emoji38] I'm not brave enough to remove the skimmer, though I suspect I could ......

Do it and let me know how it goes please[emoji13]

 

[rt67ghy]

I' m growing chaeto and have an ATS as well as a skimmer. However, the skimmer is seriously under-sized (26-80 gallons) for my system of about 200 g . I harvest 80 grams of wet algae every fortnight and my chaeto is also growing nicely. I used to grow red grape algae but that was growing like crazy and started spreading so I transferred it to another tank. Since I don't have space for a larger skimmer I need to rely more on the macro and ATS. In addition the chaeto is great for my pods and I run the ATS on reverse daylight so there's no fluctuations in the pH. I know that if NO3 climbs I can supply more light to my fuge which will increase the chaeto growth and I can increase the lighting time for the fuge/ATS if needed.I prefer the algae helping with NO3 and PO4 export and do not plan on doing carbon dosing.

 

[ca1ore]

Do it and let me know how it goes please[emoji13]

Ah, the old 'convince somebody else to experiment with something one is not willing to do oneself' ploy .....

 

[ca1ore]

Humor aside, I do think that plant export of nutrients and the use of a skimmer are complementary. While it is possible to employ just one or the other in some cases, both is better IMO. Skimmer will remove a percentage of the organics before they have a chance to break down into anything else; plant export will help to reduce those 'anything else's'. BTW, with aggressive plant export, nitrates often become a limiting factor. Measuring phosphate is a better proxy for nutrient levels.

 

[Seakrait]

The real question does a large macro fuge pull out the same amount of po4 and no3 as quickly as a moderately sized ats? If I am comfortable with and have the space for a macro fuge is there any benefit to building an ats? Is compact size the only benefit of an ats? Assume a skimmer used either way.

 

[wildman926]

The real question does a large macro fuge pull out the same amount of po4 and no3 as quickly as a moderately sized ats? If I am comfortable with and have the space for a macro fuge is there any benefit to building an ats? Is compact size the only benefit of an ats? Assume a skimmer used either way.

That question assumes that your bio load does not increase to the point of over running your Fuge or ATS, which ever is deployed.

Why not run both? They will grow accordingly dependent upon your bioload. If you run only one, and your bio load exceeds it's capacity to remove the excess nutrients, then you will have nuisance algae issues in the dt.

 

[ericarenee]

The real question does a large macro fuge pull out the same amount of po4 and no3 as quickly as a moderately sized ats? If I am comfortable with and have the space for a macro fuge is there any benefit to building an ats? Is compact size the only benefit of an ats? Assume a skimmer used either way.

I think it can.. If its proportioned and Engineered right ie correct light spectrum and harvested correctly...

My personal thoughts are the time between when you Clean the ATS to where it grows Enough to keep up withe system will cause a UP and Down in nutrient levels

Sorta like my first post in here was kinda describing... So During that Clean scrubber time you will be at Risk of higher nutrients.....


MY Answer .. Cautiously YES... I Think it will. Just i would Check your numbers say day after you clean the scrubber Or use Dual scrubber screens and alternate between cleaning them.. as i had Before my fuge grew out and i added a better skimmer..

I am actually going to replace my ATS With a Ball of Chato..Its already in my fuge and gets tangled in the other plants.. Since the ATS Is no longer working as it was.

Sorry again for such a long post....

 

[tmz]

I'm resisting a temptation to spout of about organic carbon dosing and setting aside the organic carbon discussion since it's not an alternative the op is considering and tends to move the discussion off point.

I don't think a generalization about ats vs macro fuge is possible without a lot of detail about size ,lighting flow and ,perhaps more importantly, the aglae growing in one or the other in terms of nutrient uptake( different algae may be more effective scavengers than others;some are oligotrphic and thrive in low nutrient water for example) ,invasive potential, toxicity.
Obvious differences between the ats and a mcro fudge include the use of vertical space vs horizontal space and flow requirements.

Beyond that I think a focus on the results with different algae will yield more insight than the mechanics of one approach vs the other will.
As examples, red turf algae is very invasive and thrives at very low PO4 and NO3 levels ; cauluerpa racemossa out out competes chaeto IME. Ulva does too and is also very invasive and persists at low nutrient levels.

Algae does contribute organic C which at high levels can be harmful to corals. The organics tend to include refractroy organics( not highly bio availbe) including some that discolor the water. So with either method some accounting for the extra organic carbon is necessary. Skimming takes out primarily amphipathic compounds. GAC takes out mostly hydrophobic compounds. I use both; sometimes a resin like purigen too. Both the ats and macro fuge add some habitat for pods and micro fuana.Algae tend ot use iron so a little dosing may help. They both add oxygen from photosynthesis and can be useful on opposite photo period to offset nightime hypoxia. They also consume CO2 which helps to keep pH up.

 

[ericarenee]

I'm resisting a temptation to spout of about organic carbon dosing and setting aside the organic carbon discussion since it's not an alternative the op is considering and tends to move the discussion off point.

I don't think a generalization about ats vs macro fuge is possible without a lot of detail about size ,lighting flow and ,perhaps more importantly, the aglae growing in one or the other in terms of nutrient uptake( different algae may be more effective scavengers than others;some are oligotrphic and thrive in low nutrient water for example) ,invasive potential, toxicity.
Obvious differences between the ats and a mcro fudge include the use of vertical space vs horizontal space and flow requirements.

Beyond that I think a focus on the results with different algae will yield more insight than the mechanics of one approach vs the other will.
As examples, red turf algae is very invasive and thrives at very low PO4 and NO3 levels ; cauluerpa racemossa out out competes chaeto IME. Ulva does too and is also very invasive and persists at low nutrient levels.

Algae does contribute organic C which at high levels can be harmful to corals. The organics tend to include refractroy organics( not highly bio availbe) including some that discolor the water. So with either method some accounting for the extra organic carbon is necessary. Skimming takes out primarily amphipathic compounds. GAC takes out mostly hydrophobic compounds. I use both; sometimes a resin like purigen too. Both the ats and macro fuge add some habitat for pods and micro fuana.Algae tend ot use iron so a little dosing may help. They both add oxygen from photosynthesis and can be useful on opposite photo period to offset nightime hypoxia. They also consume CO2 which helps to keep pH up.

1+

Too many variables...And every system is different....

 

[Windy2]

I have been using large macro fuges for several years now with good success. I have used and still use many types of macro ranging from chaeto to gracilaria to ulva to caulerpa. I am in the process of building a fish breeding system in my garage. I was wondering if with the large bioload an ats would be a better choice than a very large macro fuge. My plan was to stick with a large macro fuge then if my phosphate and nitrate are detectable add an ats. Thoughts? There will be a large skimmer as well as carbon, gfo and poly filter used as needed. No flaming please. If you dont run an ats please hold your opinion.

I setup my fishroom about two years ago. I have 4 brood stock tanks, a 135, and a frag tank all hooked together on one system. I feed my fish 4 times a day with feeders and feed once a day frozen in addition. That is a lot of food. I struggled trying to control hair algae, until I built and installed my ATS Now in spite of the heavy feeding, my system is algae free. I do have a vacuum system for my brood stock tanks that I use to clean up uneaten food, but much remains or is dissolved in the water column.