mandarin goby long term success
- Thread starter jedheuer
- Start date
Prepared foods, multiple species of dragonettes, and they spawn. And they have been kept for at least a year check the dates...
http://www.marinebreeder.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1429&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
I consider it a success. Prepared foods are great for the fish, which ones is the question. Brine shrimp sucks. It is not good for the fish as mentioned earlier.
Correct me if I'm wrong but people don't feed their anthias calanoid copepods all day do they? And pellets don't occur in nature either. Also what about fish like pseudochromis who feed on harpacticoid copepods but readily accept prepared foods? People feed their moorish idols and angels other prepared foods and they can now live long term too.
You just need to think outside the box a little.
http://www.marinebreeder.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1429&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
I consider it a success. Prepared foods are great for the fish, which ones is the question. Brine shrimp sucks. It is not good for the fish as mentioned earlier.
Correct me if I'm wrong but people don't feed their anthias calanoid copepods all day do they? And pellets don't occur in nature either. Also what about fish like pseudochromis who feed on harpacticoid copepods but readily accept prepared foods? People feed their moorish idols and angels other prepared foods and they can now live long term too.
You just need to think outside the box a little.
davocean
New member
Depends on your idea of long term success, a mandarin could be starving to death slowly for 3-4 mo or more, so one year may be debateable.
The thing is, I've seen my mandarins eat a pod like every couple minutes, nonstop, all day/night.
Not sure if it's a metabolism thing or what, but I just don't see feeding prepd food enough to cover it.
Maybe if you did the Melevs diner thing or something.
Most I know that have anthias feed 3-4 times a day, and they are still tough to keep, at least healthy/colorful, and VERY few people can keep idols for a decent length of time.
I know PaulB dives for fresh sponge for his, thus his success, but I don't think anyone else has come close to his LT success.
I used to have the "wing it" attitude a little more back when, but after a few deaths I started listening to those w/ exp more.
Not trying to be preachy or whatever, do what you wish, these are generalized statements.
As I said earlier, you can keep them in small tanks if you have the ability to replenish pods, as in pod culture tank or ordering pods online.
The thing is, I've seen my mandarins eat a pod like every couple minutes, nonstop, all day/night.
Not sure if it's a metabolism thing or what, but I just don't see feeding prepd food enough to cover it.
Maybe if you did the Melevs diner thing or something.
Most I know that have anthias feed 3-4 times a day, and they are still tough to keep, at least healthy/colorful, and VERY few people can keep idols for a decent length of time.
I know PaulB dives for fresh sponge for his, thus his success, but I don't think anyone else has come close to his LT success.
I used to have the "wing it" attitude a little more back when, but after a few deaths I started listening to those w/ exp more.
Not trying to be preachy or whatever, do what you wish, these are generalized statements.
As I said earlier, you can keep them in small tanks if you have the ability to replenish pods, as in pod culture tank or ordering pods online.
jedheuer
Member
Interesting thread. If I am reading it right that person kept 6 mandarins in a 24 gallon cube for over a year! If that is true then that is amazing. I would think that 6 mandarins would wipe out the pods very quickly, so they must have been living on prepared foods. I will read the whole thread when I get off work.
^Correct they feed prepared foods. I have also spawned mandarin's with prepared foods, and Matt Wittenrich also has which is who I passed my pair on too.
I didn't list my experience because you asked for long term success and I gave mine to Matt before it was very long. AFAIK, he still has them.
I didn't list my experience because you asked for long term success and I gave mine to Matt before it was very long. AFAIK, he still has them.
MattL
New member
The author is feeding live, cultured copepods and amphipods (in addition to any prepared foods). You can certainly do this. There is no reason why the pods have to come from your tank.<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14163876#post14163876 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jedheuer
Interesting thread. If I am reading it right that person kept 6 mandarins in a 24 gallon cube for over a year! If that is true then that is amazing. I would think that 6 mandarins would wipe out the pods very quickly, so they must have been living on prepared foods. I will read the whole thread when I get off work.
When he is saying that needing a 75gal plus tank is bunk (actually, a 120gal plus would be ideal), he is referring to the size requirement per se, which is true.
As pointed out elsewhere, there are several measures you can take to keep Mandarin's in smaller tanks, as these fish actually require little swimming room.
Using a small tank also helps a breeder collect the larvae to try and rear. But bear in mind that in such small confines, he is having disease problems. He has had to use bleach (OMG!), and this is a species only tank. Also, a year is in no way considered a success.
What the author is doing is one thing for breeding.
What many other people are prone to do is what I call half-arse Mandarin keeping; using a series of jerryrigged half measures to try and keep one alive for a year or two when really, all you need to do is buy them the size of tank they deserve.
Many experts have routinely commented on Mandarin Dragnoettes and their requirements, and what leads many misguided fishkeepers to sophmorically believe that all the experts on the matter are simply wrong (not thinking outside the box, as a previous poster put it) is that it takes months for their failures to catch up with them.
If you are interested in keeping these fish, why not get them the tank they deserve?
Matt
I have raised them and yes it is hard, but people have done it using only rotifers but with low yields. Those using rotifers have to pay close attention to environmental factors.
As far as feeding the adults I have used PE mysis. I start them with live brine then brine then PE mysis. I never tried to get them on pellets though a few can, but I feel this is much harder and not really worth the effort. They should be fine on PE mysis.
Now hear me out...
I think there are two ways, those of you that keep them in large tanks fell they need a large tank to naturally forage for pods, which is fine. Most people keep bigger fish in large tanks so the mandarin has no chance to compete for prepared foods anyway without over feeding so the large tank with lots of rock is necessary in this case.
However,
I think keeping them in a small tank is easy and ideal too. You can feed your fish so you know it is fat and happy and healthy. Also most people don't keep overly aggressive fish or large amounts of fish in small tanks so the mandarin can easily get food.
Now even if you are going to keep it in a big tank and let it naturally forage I think it is still a good idea to train it to prepared foods. Instead of QT (mandarin's don't get many diseases) put it in a breeder net in the main tank start with live brine then brine then mysis that way if food hits the bottom it will pick it up.
Good luck, just my 2 cents take it or leave it though from past experience not many people take it.
As far as feeding the adults I have used PE mysis. I start them with live brine then brine then PE mysis. I never tried to get them on pellets though a few can, but I feel this is much harder and not really worth the effort. They should be fine on PE mysis.
Now hear me out...
I think there are two ways, those of you that keep them in large tanks fell they need a large tank to naturally forage for pods, which is fine. Most people keep bigger fish in large tanks so the mandarin has no chance to compete for prepared foods anyway without over feeding so the large tank with lots of rock is necessary in this case.
However,
I think keeping them in a small tank is easy and ideal too. You can feed your fish so you know it is fat and happy and healthy. Also most people don't keep overly aggressive fish or large amounts of fish in small tanks so the mandarin can easily get food.
Now even if you are going to keep it in a big tank and let it naturally forage I think it is still a good idea to train it to prepared foods. Instead of QT (mandarin's don't get many diseases) put it in a breeder net in the main tank start with live brine then brine then mysis that way if food hits the bottom it will pick it up.
Good luck, just my 2 cents take it or leave it though from past experience not many people take it.
jedheuer
Member
Well put... I respect what everyone is saying here but I think there must be a way that more people can successfully keep mandarins in smaller tanks. if it is a matter of food it stands to reason that a mandarin accepting prepared food would be healthy on a diet of a prepared food which match's the nutritional content of pods. The question is what is this food? There must be something out there that would work. Fish like gobies, chromis, clowns live for years and years on brine shrimp only. 15 years ago people said it was impossible to keep SPS, now it is easy. I cant help but think mandarins could be this way too.
Brine shrimp isn't good though, its fatty and has almost nothing to it. Mysis is a much better option.
Or if you make your own food you can add other things like raw shrimp, scallops (fatty), squid, fish, clams, mussels, the list goes on.
We know they eat pods in aquariums, but I think it is hard to make such a blanket statement about what they eat in the wild. There are SO MANY different types of pods, I don't think it is sufficient to say: a mandarin eats "pods" now what equals a "pod".
Copepods ARE one of the most nutritional things you can feed any fish, but I also don't think it is safe to say, that say, a mysis shrimp can't equal a pod in its ability to accommodate a fishes nutritional needs.
That being said with the size of most copepods available for purchase and the ones naturally present in our tank, I think they are a very hard food to feed in reef tanks (probably the most common environment mandarins are kept). With all the circulation pumps calanoid copepods are easily chopped up, and for those of you who disagree on this how come people who culture pods or rotifers don't use normal pumps but air instead? Also calanoid copepods stay in the water column so it would be tough for a mandarin to feed on those. It seems a lot of the bottled copepods are calanoids.
Mandarins prefer harpacticoid copepods (those that live on the surface of something) which are also sold and can be cultured, but I think it is much more efficient to either feed the fish in a small tank or let it forage in a large tank.
I would also like to know for people who think prepared foods aren't sufficient... If you compare a mysis shrimp to a copepod one the size difference is big a mysis shrimp is much bigger, and I would also like to know how many copepods equal one mysis shrimp? I don't think this question is easily answered, but maybe that is why they forage all day constantly picking because their prey is so tiny. If they gorge on mysis shrimp that will fill them up much more quickly than eating copepods all day.
Just some food for thought.
Or if you make your own food you can add other things like raw shrimp, scallops (fatty), squid, fish, clams, mussels, the list goes on.
We know they eat pods in aquariums, but I think it is hard to make such a blanket statement about what they eat in the wild. There are SO MANY different types of pods, I don't think it is sufficient to say: a mandarin eats "pods" now what equals a "pod".
Copepods ARE one of the most nutritional things you can feed any fish, but I also don't think it is safe to say, that say, a mysis shrimp can't equal a pod in its ability to accommodate a fishes nutritional needs.
That being said with the size of most copepods available for purchase and the ones naturally present in our tank, I think they are a very hard food to feed in reef tanks (probably the most common environment mandarins are kept). With all the circulation pumps calanoid copepods are easily chopped up, and for those of you who disagree on this how come people who culture pods or rotifers don't use normal pumps but air instead? Also calanoid copepods stay in the water column so it would be tough for a mandarin to feed on those. It seems a lot of the bottled copepods are calanoids.
Mandarins prefer harpacticoid copepods (those that live on the surface of something) which are also sold and can be cultured, but I think it is much more efficient to either feed the fish in a small tank or let it forage in a large tank.
I would also like to know for people who think prepared foods aren't sufficient... If you compare a mysis shrimp to a copepod one the size difference is big a mysis shrimp is much bigger, and I would also like to know how many copepods equal one mysis shrimp? I don't think this question is easily answered, but maybe that is why they forage all day constantly picking because their prey is so tiny. If they gorge on mysis shrimp that will fill them up much more quickly than eating copepods all day.
Just some food for thought.
I am finding this thread quite interesting, as are all the threads that question the validity of feeding a captive animal food that 1) is not part of its natural diet, 2) makes up an unnatural percentage of its diet, or 3) is presented in an unnatural way. This seems to come up whenever there is discussion on the husbandry of coralivores, obligate or not.
Is there anything in the mandarin's anatomy that suggests the need to constantly forage for food? Any reason to suppose that the mandarin is a 'podivore? Because I see an obvious parallel between the mandarin's natural habits and the seahore's. Both would normally eat 'pods, and both would normally hunt for said 'pods for most of the daylight hours. Yet few dispute anymore that seahorses can be successfully kept in captivity through the twice daily feeding of frozen mysis shrimp. If there happens to be some 'pods in the tank for them to snick, that is just bonus. It is almost every seahorse owner's goal to get their seahorse onto frozen food. This, despite the fact that there is a very real anatomic reason for seahorses to constantly forage for food -- they don't have stomaches and therefore they do not digest their food very efficiently. This requires them to eat regularly. They are also breeding machines, using considerable reserves in spawning and rearing.
So if "prepared" foods are keeping captive seahorses alive, and seahorses are similar to mandarins in both what they eat and the manner in which they hunt for it, and mandarins do not have a anatomic reason to need to forage (which the seahorse argueably does), then why the arguement that a mandarin on prepared foods can not be kept alive?
Full disclosure: I have 2 spotted mandarins. Both take prepared foods -- they especially enjoy mysis and salmon and seek them out. They are plump and the male has been for well over a year; I did not purchase his mate until I was sure that I could maintain the first. While my mandarins probably eat copepods, I am aware that they actively hunt for and consume amphipods.
Is there anything in the mandarin's anatomy that suggests the need to constantly forage for food? Any reason to suppose that the mandarin is a 'podivore? Because I see an obvious parallel between the mandarin's natural habits and the seahore's. Both would normally eat 'pods, and both would normally hunt for said 'pods for most of the daylight hours. Yet few dispute anymore that seahorses can be successfully kept in captivity through the twice daily feeding of frozen mysis shrimp. If there happens to be some 'pods in the tank for them to snick, that is just bonus. It is almost every seahorse owner's goal to get their seahorse onto frozen food. This, despite the fact that there is a very real anatomic reason for seahorses to constantly forage for food -- they don't have stomaches and therefore they do not digest their food very efficiently. This requires them to eat regularly. They are also breeding machines, using considerable reserves in spawning and rearing.
So if "prepared" foods are keeping captive seahorses alive, and seahorses are similar to mandarins in both what they eat and the manner in which they hunt for it, and mandarins do not have a anatomic reason to need to forage (which the seahorse argueably does), then why the arguement that a mandarin on prepared foods can not be kept alive?
Full disclosure: I have 2 spotted mandarins. Both take prepared foods -- they especially enjoy mysis and salmon and seek them out. They are plump and the male has been for well over a year; I did not purchase his mate until I was sure that I could maintain the first. While my mandarins probably eat copepods, I am aware that they actively hunt for and consume amphipods.
jedheuer
Member
All good points I think the key questions are
1) is there a biological reason for mandarins to need to graze on pods all day?
2) what is the nutritional makeup of pods?
3) can it be reasonably matched with a prepared food
4) can prepared food be delivered in a manner that the mandarin can thrive (i.e. multiple times a day or in a controlled manner like Melev's mandarin diner idea)
Also regarding your feeding of salmon. I assume you just use raw chopped salmon. I imagine that would be great for the protein and omega 3 content.
Masterofnonsense
New member
I agree with this 100%. I recently picked up a male spotted mandarin that was extremely emaciated. I started with him in the breeder's net and made sure he was eating frozen foods. After a week, I released him into the main tank and setup a mandarin "diner". It took him a little while to figure it out, but now he is there waiting for the refill every morning.
There is no way this little guy could compete with the larger fish for food. He needs time for the food to stay stationary and inspect it. Having either a small tank without boisterous fish to snatch the food away, or a special place where the mandarin can take their time makes all the difference!
I'm pleased to say my little guy that looked like skin stretched over bones has plumped up quite a bit. He still has a ways to go before he looks completely healthy, but it is night and day compared to when I first brought him home. I have him in a 50 gallon BB tank with maybe 30 lbs of live rock. I don't run a refugium either.
Yes, raw chopped salmon. Any seafood that the family is eating I will set some aside and feed fresh raw for several days, and freeze some raw food to feed out until the next seafood buffet. Favorites seem to be salmon and crab. Only the inverts seem to like lobster. I like scallops, so sometimes they can't be set aside...
