Minimalistic multichip DIY LED build

[Lassef]

What you say about the XM-L is true, if running them at a high amperage they are less efficient than running some lower powered LEDs at a much lower current.
You have the choice of low running cost or low set up costs.
For the best bang for your $ I actually prefer the Cree XT-E.

It is not easy to compare the lumen per watt levels of an Epistar LED to that of a Cree as Epistar (so far as I can tell) don't supply data for white LEDs, only the royal blues which are converted to white with a phosphor.
The lumen per watt levels supplied by the finished multi-chip product will depend on the phosphor used (among other factors).

If trying to compare the efficiency of these multi-chip LEDs to a Cree its far easier to ignore the phosphor and stick to comparing the output of royal blue LEDs.

According to the AC-RC supplied data sheet on the Epistar LEDs used in their dream chip, the royals used to make them can produce between 360 and 400mw @ 350ma ( I can't find details of such an efficient chip on the Epistar website, 295mw seems to be the most efficient mentioned there).

The Q flux bin Cree XT-E produces a minimum of 600mw at 350ma, its minimum rating is 50% higher than the max quoted by AC-RC.

At 700ma the Epistar be running at its maximum current (never a good thing) and will produce a max of 720 mw.

At 700ma the Cree XT-E will be run at less than half its rated power and will produce a minimum of 1050 mw

If you take into account that the Epistar figures are for an LED run at a temperature of 25c and the Cree at 85c then things swing even further in favour of the Cree.
There is a graph provided by Epistar showing the drop in output at higher temperatures but it only goes up to 80c, at which point the chip has lost around 10%, so now at around 650mm @700ma.

It looks to me that at the same drive current a high rated XT-E based system is over 50% more efficient than the Dream chip.

At 1A the XT-E will produce 1380mw, on average consuming 3.15 watts, or 438mw per watt.
At 700ma the Epistar will consume 2.45 watts, providing 265mw per watt.

Even at the maximum rated current of 1.5A the XT-E will produce a minimum of 354 mw per watt.

If you want to compare the output of white chips - you can't only compare the underlying blue chip. The final result is also depending of the phosphorus layer. In your case - the real output of a low Kelvin white LED based on Cree XT-E probably has an equal or lower PAR reading compared with a high Kelvin LED based on Epistar.

If you only compare the Royal Blues "“ you are right - but I think you are comparing apples and pears. The Cree XT is a large chip, it has probably more than 100 % larger surface compared with the Epistar. The flux are depended of the size. See the attached picture.



And remember in the world of OEM "“ you never know who is producing the stuff a company sell. Epileds are one of the few producers of LED with wavelengths around 420 nm "“ they are not many worldwide.

Epistar and Epileds are quality brands from Korea but all LED sold with their names are not the real stuff. In the same way that not all Rolex is the real stuff "“ especially not the cheap ones .

Sincerely Lasse

 

[TropTrea]

Interesting chart Dennis. From what i've seen with to many commercial fixtures, the trouble running fewer chips is spotlighting. They don't blend with the other chips very well. The aquascape ends up resembling a stage show. The sand becomes a mirror image of looking at the underside of the fixture! Better optics in tune with fixture distances to the tank help but i'm still seeing more of it than i find acceptable. Whereas a fixture like the Fluval Sea LED fixture despite it's shortcomings, array of ~ 500+ surface mounted diodes, white, red, royl blue, blue, near uv, from what i've seen of it, blend seamlessly to look like one natural light source spectrum wise. On the higher power/fewer chips end of it IMO, Ecotech Radion doesn't do a bad job either.
In the past year to present i've seen several members of my local reef club switch from LED fixtures back to T5's and Halides. Honestly, i have to say i may've too had i sunk money into the "spotlight" types so prevalent in the marketplace.
Color spotlighting is also a problem i see with the "LED Cannons" which undeniably are great for deep tanks. I'm curious what others here have done to reduce the effect, i'd guess sticking with one type say 12K or 20K high power multi chip?

The sometimes disco effect is very prevelent when you have several different colored chips spaced apart. The multi chip is great way of minimilizing that disco effect. However as you mentioned there is also a heavy shadowing effect when you have only 2 or even 4 cannons of multichips over a 48 inch long tank. Some people like this shadowy effect others dislike it to different degrees. I'm personly one that dislikes it.

I have found that by usin single emiter chips spread out no more than 8" apart on a particular color creates a fairly even coverage on a tank around 24" high. Using this in shorter tankls will also work if raise the lights.

Looking at a comparson between the multichip and th individual chips using my guidlines on a tank 24" X 48" . the surface area of the tank is 115 square inches, and I like the lighting surce to cover a maximium of 256 square inches. So if I went with multichip cannons I would be look for at least 6 canons or at least 6 LED's of each color. More of them would mean an even better light distribution however less of them would make the shadowing more dramitic.

Now looking at the wattage required in my estimation if this is a 120 gallon tank 360 Watts should allow you to grow basicly everything. On 6 Cannons that would mean about 60 Watts per cannnon but you would probably go higher so your not running all the colors at the same leven to giveyou the color balance that pleases your eye.

With single chips and my color taste I would be looking at roughly 90 Watts of Neutral Whites, 20 Watts of UV Lighting, and 250 Watts of Blue Lighting. Since I want at least 6 sets of light then each set would need to be roughly 15 Watts of Neutral Whites, 3.3 Watts of UV's and 42 Watts of Blue LED's.

Since I would run each color on a seprate driver I would then go with each unit being 2 10 Watt Neutral White LED' running at 75% of full power, 2 3Watt UV leds running at roughly 55% power, and 10 5 watt Blue LED's running at roughly 84% of full power. This is a total of 14 LED's per bank and with 6 Banks a total of 84 LED's.

The lighting effect from these two systems would be extremly simular. If you liked the shadowy effect the multichips would be a no brainer, but it want an even light distribution Te single emiters would win out. Cost difference can vary extremly dependent on sources and selections of chips especial with the multichips. If ou tank is taller than 24" or your going to raise your lights more than a few inches above the surface the muli chipo is the best way to go.

 

[Reef Reactor]

Hi, do I need to read all the post to understand how can I build and use led lighting for my 48"x40"x22" sps tank?

Lol!!
Help an direction pls

 

[Lassef]

The sometimes disco effect is very prevelent when you have several different colored chips spaced apart. The multi chip is great way of minimilizing that disco effect. However as you mentioned there is also a heavy shadowing effect when you have only 2 or even 4 cannons of multichips over a 48 inch long tank. Some people like this shadowy effect others dislike it to different degrees. I'm personly one that dislikes it.

I have found that by usin single emiter chips spread out no more than 8" apart on a particular color creates a fairly even coverage on a tank around 24" high. Using this in shorter tankls will also work if raise the lights.

Looking at a comparson between the multichip and th individual chips using my guidlines on a tank 24" X 48" . the surface area of the tank is 115 square inches, and I like the lighting surce to cover a maximium of 256 square inches. So if I went with multichip cannons I would be look for at least 6 canons or at least 6 LED's of each color. More of them would mean an even better light distribution however less of them would make the shadowing more dramitic.

Now looking at the wattage required in my estimation if this is a 120 gallon tank 360 Watts should allow you to grow basicly everything. On 6 Cannons that would mean about 60 Watts per cannnon but you would probably go higher so your not running all the colors at the same leven to giveyou the color balance that pleases your eye.

With single chips and my color taste I would be looking at roughly 90 Watts of Neutral Whites, 20 Watts of UV Lighting, and 250 Watts of Blue Lighting. Since I want at least 6 sets of light then each set would need to be roughly 15 Watts of Neutral Whites, 3.3 Watts of UV's and 42 Watts of Blue LED's.

Since I would run each color on a seprate driver I would then go with each unit being 2 10 Watt Neutral White LED' running at 75% of full power, 2 3Watt UV leds running at roughly 55% power, and 10 5 watt Blue LED's running at roughly 84% of full power. This is a total of 14 LED's per bank and with 6 Banks a total of 84 LED's.

The lighting effect from these two systems would be extremly simular. If you liked the shadowy effect the multichips would be a no brainer, but it want an even light distribution Te single emiters would win out. Cost difference can vary extremly dependent on sources and selections of chips especial with the multichips. If ou tank is taller than 24" or your going to raise your lights more than a few inches above the surface the muli chipo is the best way to go.

I really don know what you base your statement that 2 or even 4 Cannons will create shadow effects in a 48" long tank. I have one by myself. 3 Dream Chip (2 with 100 LED and one with 50 LED) 9" over the surface and 60 degree lenses. 24" deep. Not even with 60 degrees lenses I get any shadows. If I should run 2 - I will use 90 degree lenses insted. I read between 400 - 300 PAR at the bottom and do not run the chips more than app 60 %. I have primary softies and mushrooms but it will slowly change to more a mixed reef. After change to the Dream Chip - the growth has exploded

Sincerely Lasse

 

[007Bond]

Hey Lasse,
Can you put up the specks, fv, maxA, maxW for your 50W DC. Thanks---Rick

 

[Lassef]

The 50 LED DC has the same spec of diodes as the 100 LED DC - the only difference is that each channel has only one row (10 LED). Therefore, the maximum current is 700 mA. The FV is the same 30 - 36V. It was only a few in the second GB.


The Lumina 5.1 is also a 50 LED solution, max 700 mA but the FV is different between the channels. It have also another approach to the configuration.


Speaking of another approach - have you seen this thread

Sincerely Lasse

 

[FastUno]

On another note, have you guys heard about the new "higher intensity blue Philips diodes?"

The ATI has a fixture with these & it is CRAZY expensive. I was fortunate enough to visit a local reefer who had one of these & paid $2100 for them. I could not believe my eyes with the mixture of lights & the POP that I witnessed with these lights.

I tried to capture it on cam & video, but it just did not translate what I saw. It was amazing!

Anyway, can we get these LED multi lights & DIY a fixture? How much would it cost just for the LED's & how much would it cost for a 48" fixture complete with power supply, heat sink, fans...etc? Much cheaper than buying the fixture I would imagine?

Just search for "ATI LED-Powermodul T5 + LED reef light" and you will see what I mean.

 

[007Bond]

wow Lasse, that was a looooong link. Lot of arguing. What would You add or subtract on the future DC? The posts by Big Al about dimming also changes spectrum...makes you think. Find the sweet spot...growth duration, viewing duration ect. and never touch the dial again. :worried:---Rick

 

[Lassef]

Correction

Correction

If you want to compare the output of white chips - you can't only compare the underlying blue chip. The final result is also depending of the phosphorus layer. In your case - the real output of a low Kelvin white LED based on Cree XT-E probably has an equal or lower PAR reading compared with a high Kelvin LED based on Epistar.

If you only compare the Royal Blues "“ you are right - but I think you are comparing apples and pears. The Cree XT is a large chip, it has probably more than 100 % larger surface compared with the Epistar. The flux are depended of the size. See the attached picture.

View attachment 242400

And remember in the world of OEM "“ you never know who is producing the stuff a company sell. Epileds are one of the few producers of LED with wavelengths around 420 nm "“ they are not many worldwide.

Epistar and Epileds are quality brands from Korea but all LED sold with their names are not the real stuff. In the same way that not all Rolex is the real stuff "“ especially not the cheap ones .

Sincerely Lasse

I wrote something wrong - Epileds and Epistar are brands from Taiwan - not Korea - my bad

Sincerely Lasse

 

[TropTrea]

I really don know what you base your statement that 2 or even 4 Cannons will create shadow effects in a 48" long tank. I have one by myself. 3 Dream Chip (2 with 100 LED and one with 50 LED) 9" over the surface and 60 degree lenses. 24" deep. Not even with 60 degrees lenses I get any shadows. If I should run 2 - I will use 90 degree lenses insted. I read between 400 - 300 PAR at the bottom and do not run the chips more than app 60 %. I have primary softies and mushrooms but it will slowly change to more a mixed reef. After change to the Dream Chip - the growth has exploded

Sincerely Lasse

What I'm refering to by shadowing is when you have large coral such as a montipora cap. With a single point light source you will see a sharp shadow below it. With two light sources at an angle to each other of say 30 degrees off of vertical you actualy see two disticnt shadow however they are much less pronounced. Going with even more light sources the shadow effect will become almost unnoticable. However if you do measure the light under the coral you will note that par is reduced compared to a point measured to the horzontal where light hits from all the light sources.

Another thing is I look at a 24" X 48" tank and being 2 seperate 24" X 24" tanks for lighting purposes. Most have a center brace and a light directly above it would create a harsh shadow. With 3 light sources over the 24" X 25" area this shadowing is at a minimum.

Another gig factor is your lights are 9" above the surface. With a 24" tall tank and 3" of substrate that means the light is actualy 30" away from the substrate. With 60 degree lenses your covering an area of roughly 50" across at the substrate. So with 3 pendents equaly spaced apart you would actualy have them roughly 16" apart. So with the spread on your light you do have 3 lights hitting a majority of the surface are of your tank with the exception of about a 7" strip in each side that only two lights are hitting.

Now I do notput my lights nearly as high as you are. They are only about 3" above my water surface and with a 4" substrate base that means I'm only 23" above the substrate. with 60 degree menses I'd have a spread of 39" if I did not have a center rail to worry about I could get away with 4 lights and cover the area nicely with a minimum of shadows. And yes with 90 degree lenses it could actualy work out with even 3 lights.

But again the matter is do you want to use 3 100 watt pendents, 4 75 watt pendents, or 6 50 watt units. If the clips in them are all equaly tuned you would get the same total amount of light only there would be slight shadowing difference. Having worked for a while in photography my eye is vey sensative to shadows however this is something I learned while studying B&W photography and is not noticed as much by the average person.

 

[80series]

wow Lasse, that was a looooong link. Lot of arguing. What would You add or subtract on the future DC? The posts by Big Al about dimming also changes spectrum...makes you think. Find the sweet spot...growth duration, viewing duration ect. and never touch the dial again. :worried:---Rick

Hey Rick, I'm not sure anything should be changed with the DC. At this point it's like splitting hairs.

 

[asid61]

If you want to compare the output of white chips - you can't only compare the underlying blue chip. The final result is also depending of the phosphorus layer. In your case - the real output of a low Kelvin white LED based on Cree XT-E probably has an equal or lower PAR reading compared with a high Kelvin LED based on Epistar.

If you only compare the Royal Blues "“ you are right - but I think you are comparing apples and pears. The Cree XT is a large chip, it has probably more than 100 % larger surface compared with the Epistar. The flux are depended of the size. See the attached picture.

View attachment 242400

And remember in the world of OEM "“ you never know who is producing the stuff a company sell. Epileds are one of the few producers of LED with wavelengths around 420 nm "“ they are not many worldwide.

Epistar and Epileds are quality brands from Korea but all LED sold with their names are not the real stuff. In the same way that not all Rolex is the real stuff "“ especially not the cheap ones .

Sincerely Lasse

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree here. The phosphors for epistar would have to be incredibly good to overcome a 60% difference in output. And at 25C, the crees actually get around a 17% increase in efficiency.
So really, you get around 70% more output with a cree blue.

Also, PAR means little with white leds. high kelvin whites are not good for aquariums, or at least for growth. Sure, you might get 500 PAR 12" away, but stick it over a tank of corals and see what happens. The spectral output of a high-kelvin (10k+) white led is terrible. Not actively bad for corals, but it's not as useful as a low-kelvin cree.

 

[asid61]

On another note, have you guys heard about the new "higher intensity blue Philips diodes?"

The ATI has a fixture with these & it is CRAZY expensive. I was fortunate enough to visit a local reefer who had one of these & paid $2100 for them. I could not believe my eyes with the mixture of lights & the POP that I witnessed with these lights.

I tried to capture it on cam & video, but it just did not translate what I saw. It was amazing!

Anyway, can we get these LED multi lights & DIY a fixture? How much would it cost just for the LED's & how much would it cost for a 48" fixture complete with power supply, heat sink, fans...etc? Much cheaper than buying the fixture I would imagine?

Just search for "ATI LED-Powermodul T5 + LED reef light" and you will see what I mean.

I don't think the ATI powermodule is a multichip. It's just a smattering of regular diodes.
The new Luxeon blue is the Luxeon M. More efficient than the Cree XT-E. However, the ATI powermodule is actually using Luexon Rebel chips. Still okay, but less efficient than the Cree XT-, XP-G, or XM-L. Definitely not "cutting-edge", but they probably were when ATI began developing the fixture.

EDIT: The Cree XT-E get 600mW of output with the top bin. The Rebel ES get 500mW with the top bin. Numbers are corrected for 85*C.

 

[Lassef]

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree here. The phosphors for epistar would have to be incredibly good to overcome a 60% difference in output. And at 25C, the crees actually get around a 17% increase in efficiency.
So really, you get around 70% more output with a cree blue.

I do not know how much you know about LED and phosphorus technology but in general "“ if you want a lower Kelvin and higher CRI "“ you will lose more of the output from the original blue led in the transformation to a white look. If you look at Cree's own table of the XM-L output you will see this. For Cool White (5000-8000K) they have 300 Lumen at 700 mA, NW (3000-5000K) "“ 260 Lumen and down to 185 Lumen for 85 and 90 CRI white (2700 K "“ 3200 K) My bottom line is that you lose a lot of energy when you transform the blue light to low Kelvin whites "“ therefore you can't compare the way you do

Also, PAR means little with white leds. high kelvin whites are not good for aquariums, or at least for growth. Sure, you might get 500 PAR 12" away, but stick it over a tank of corals and see what happens. The spectral output of a high-kelvin (10k+) white led is terrible. Not actively bad for corals, but it's not as useful as a low-kelvin cree.

I totally disagree with you - I have 4 years experiences with only high Kelvin LEDs over coral tanks. I have also experiences with Cree XLM on other tanks. You have to explain for me what makes a warm white LED better for growth compared with a High Kelvin LED. The last 5 months I have run 3 DC over the tank (420,430,445,455 nm blue, 10 000 and 16 000 K white). The growth has been very good.

but stick it over a tank of corals and see what happens.

It's exactly what I have done for 4 years - and I have also seen what happens. And it is not what you indicate....

@ 007Bond and 80series: I do not really know - I'm very satisfied with the configuration of the DC I have. If you compare the Pacific Sun solution and the DC solution - its two ways to try to solve the same problem (get rid of the terrible low Kelvin LEDs ). However - if I have read what Pacific Sun wrote at the other thread when we was discussing the DC configuration in this thread last year - I probably had argue in order to have only one white channel (16 000K with red phosphorus and in the middle). The 10 000 K channel could then be replaced with a channel composed of a combination of 470 and 570 nm LEDs. No need of green an red LEDs in this case. But as 80series stated "“ it is a little like splitting hair. I have a Lumina 5.1 at home and have tested it a little (and compared it with the orginal DC). IMO it's a rather good chip but if they had chose 16 000 K for the white instead "“ it has been better "“ not excellent but much better. It's the way Pacific Sun stated in the other thread "“ if you want to have a good colouration and see the full flourocense even when you have a white tune in the aquarium"“ you must turn the 4500 K channel down to lesser than 20 % or trick the eye with RGB

Sincerely Lasse

 

[007Bond]

Lasse, I know you have posted before somewhere, but will you put up again what mA's you are currently running the different channels of your DC, and the time durations also.Thanks---Rick

 

[Lassef]

As you know - I have a special driver card. It's not a switching solution as the LDD drivers - therefore I have to adjust the current at each channel so the FV of each channel will be as equal as possible. You can't see this in my pictures because I'm not running all channels at 100 %. As you can see "“ I have different currents to each channel "“ if you have another driver solution "“ you do not need this configuration "“ but for you information "“ see the attached files device1-3
File TIMER show my actual time setting. I'm run my chips in a way that gives PAR around 3-500 at the bottom. I'm rather convinced that with so much of light it's not necessary to run 100% for more than 3-4 hours a day "“ therefore the long ramp up. Device 1 is a normal DC with 100 LED, Device2 is a 50 LED´s DC and Device 3 is a special DC with some red in the middle. The red is controlled from another driver - therefore 0 at cannel 3, Device3. Normal DC - channel 1 = 10 000 K white, Channel 2 = 445 nm RB, channel 3 = 420/430 nm Actinic, channel 4 = 455 RB and channel 5 = 16 000 K white. At enddevice 3 channel 1 = 10 000 K white, channel 2 = 445/455 nm RB, channel 3 = 636/660 Red, channel 4 = 420/430 nm Actinic and channel 5 = 16 000 K

​

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Sincerely Lasse​

 

[007Bond]

Thanks Lasse,...I'll have to do a little studying so I understand your method. I wanted to see your intensity and duration on the blue channels after all the debate about white on the other thread.

 

[Lassef]

The current is not the whole story according to intensity. On the second line (max %) you can see that I run the white at 60 % to 70 % of the current (the blues 80 - 100 %) It means that even if the timer says 100 % - the max % will overide this and if it says 60 % - it will not be higher. I´m also testing different setup and corals below the cannons.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[007Bond]

I'll watch for your test results. My controller will control in % of input to the channels.

 

[Lassef]

Here is some pictures that show the catastrophic results of long time use of high Kelvin white LEDs

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Sincerely Lasse​