MP40 vs 6105 vs WP40

[sirreal63]

Your image is from 10/2006 according to the exif data, Klaus claims to have 5 protypes sold by end of 2004. It makes it a little hard to claim that Taiwan made the first cone skimmer.

 

[bluereefs]

Your image is from 10/2006 according to the exif data, Klaus claims to have 5 protypes sold by end of 2004. It makes it a little hard to claim that Taiwan made the first cone skimmer.

That is what Klaus claims, in thread from 2008 IIRC. Do you see or have any other proof, images or anything else what can prove that there was cone skimmer in any EU/USA aquarium in 2004?

You think that somehow taiwan manufacture spy and copy BK prototipe?? How he do that? It was Taiwan local reef shop.

 

[sirreal63]

The point is simply that the pic is proof of nothing, neither of them are. Taiwan isn't China. Taiwan has been a manufacturing country for a long time. China didn't really get into exporting their manufactured goods until somewhere around 2000. It still shows no innovated unique Chinese designs.

 

[SimonSKL]

I don't know how and why we started to talk about protein skimmers and LEDs but no one could answer my questions that I posted specifically about water pumps and patent. I thought this thread is about water and wave making pumps.

 

[smkooq]

People still seem to be mixin up knockoffs and product differentiation.

What differentiates Charmin toilet paper to Cottonelle? They both look the same don't they? As far as toilet paper roll goes. What if Cottonelle was named "Sharmin" and used nearly identical packaging and logo as Charmin? What has happened now?




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[karsseboom]

I don't know how and why we started to talk about protein skimmers and LEDs but no one could answer my questions that I posted specifically about water pumps and patent. I thought this thread is about water and wave making pumps.

I'm pretty sure vortech is a DC pump also. Yes they copied tunze straight from the gate. Infact what do you see that different?

 

[sirreal63]

I will try Simon.

Let me ask these questions:

If Hydor were the company to come up with the WP40, is this a knockoff? Yes

Will Hydor be accused of stealing the patent from Ecotech or Tunze? Yes, if the statute of limitations is still in effect. It may be if the 6105 is patented, or the cradle is patented. Hydor is an Italian (I believe) company and observes patent laws and intellectual property.

Can anyone with patent knowledge and laws tells us how the design of WP40 infringes the patent right of Ecotech or Tunze or any US company that holds such patent? Afterall propeller pumps has been around for a long time made by companies all over the world. I don't do patent laws, but it doesn't matter, China does not recognize intellectual property hence the reason they dupe everything they can without any real repercussions.

Which country is the first country invented propeller water pump driven by a motor? I believe Tunze originated the prop pump for aquarium use. The prop isn't the issue, the shape, cradle and design is a blatant ripoff.

 

[slief]

Tunze all the way with the Vortech's a close second.

Nothing worse than chasing stray current. That's a common occurrence with cheap pumps.

I've done the cheap pump thing and given the investment I have in my tank and more than 25 years of experience, I've had enough time to learn the hardway. You get what you pay for and you usually end up paying a price for being cheap. I will also not support a company that practically steals another companies designs or aspects of it at the very least. Chinese companies are notorious for doing it and will not take party in padding the pockets of a company stealing another companies designs.

I'm also of the mindset of "Do it right the first time" or.. Ive read the threads on those pumps and some have had good experience while others not so much. The one thing that everybody has in common is that the time running these pumps is very limited and the quality has yet to be proven. Time will tell but you can pretty much bank on the fact that as time goes on, there will be more issues with those pumps. People will have issues with their tanks and not know why. When the cheaply made pumps start leaking current or take in water, there is be fallout. Just look at their magnets. People are already complaining about those leaking. If they cant seal the magnet, what does that say about potential pump issues?

Also, I like the unlimited controllability I have with my Tunze's running on my Apex. Currently I have two 6205's and one 6105 and get amazing wave action, great flush cycles, calmer sunrise sunset cycles and really calm night cycles.. I will be adding another 6105 to my system soon.

The Vortech's are great pumps too. I just don't like the fact that if you bump one with a magnet, you might knock it out of alignment with the driver. Also, my Tunze install is unique in that I have mine mounted to bulkheads with the wires running out the back to the tank through the plumbing. If you are wondering how I did it, take a look at my build thread but here are a few pictures to show you what I am talking about.

This is my 6105 mounted to Nylock fittings on my overflow.

 

[flamron]

How do you take those out?

 

[SimonSKL]

I will try Simon.

Thanks Jack! The Jebao WP40 doesn't resemble Vortech MP series in any manner so we can say it is not a knockoff of Vortech. I realize Tunze pump is not made in US. Can you show or prove to us the patent of Tunze pump that protects the shape, cradle, and design of their pump?

 

[smkooq]

Thanks Jack! The Jebao WP40 doesn't resemble Vortech MP series in any manner so we can say it is not a knockoff of Vortech. I realize Tunze pump is not made in US. Can you show or prove to us the patent of Tunze pump that protects the shape, cradle, and design of their pump?

Are you trying to state that for a product to be a knockoff, it must be under patent infringement?



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[sirreal63]

As I said Simon, I don't do patent laws however a simple PM to Roger or email to Tunze Corporate would probably yield more patents than you have time to research. When you are done it still would not matter if they were covered by patents or not, as China would not recognize them. The decision to support a company that doesn't care is a personal one. Only you can decide if that is important or the only thing that really matters is a cheap price.

 

[slief]

How do you take those out?

There is plenty of length with the Tunze cables. I can pull the pumps out of the tank while the wire snakes through the bulk heads or Nylock. If I need to clean or service the pumps, I do it on top of the tank and pull some slack through the mounts. Vinegar in a bowl and the pumps look like new. They have been running this way for nearly two years problem free.

If they need to be removed completely, I can pull the cable and plug assembly through the bulk heads either by dropping the tank level or desoldering the little junction box from the cable.

 

[bluereefs]

IIRC corectly, pumps for Hydor made sun sun, China factory, first sun sun pumps (JVP models) come before Hydor release their models, and first hydor models was almost identical (much more then today wp40 vs tunze) to jvp models, including same dimension. I am quite sure sun sun still made pumps for hydor but is also sure that jvp models come before hydor pumps and hydor pumps are almost identical to sun sun pumps. Nobody complain about that.

 

[sirreal63]

The difference should be obvious, Hydor paid Sun Sun to make the pumps, I don't believe Tunze paid the maker of the Jebao pump to make it, do you?

 

[smkooq]

IIRC corectly, pumps for Hydor made sun sun, China factory, first sun sun pumps (JVP models) come before Hydor release their models, and first hydor models was almost identical (much more then today wp40 vs tunze) to jvp models, including same dimension. I am quite sure sun sun still made pumps for hydor but is also sure that jvp models come before hydor pumps and hydor pumps are almost identical to sun sun pumps. Nobody complain about that.

Your going off on a tangent. First who knows the business end of Sun sun and Hydor pumps, maybe they have some business correlation we don't know about. And no one is going to care because there isn't a high market demand for them.

The topic at hand is that Jebao is just a knockoff. It may work great, it may last forever. But it definitely is not a game changer. I would be looking forward to see what Ecotech or Tunze or maybe a new innovative company will be advancing in our hobby next. Not Jebao.






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[SimonSKL]

Are you trying to state that for a product to be a knockoff, it must be under patent infringement?



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A knockoff is a copy of the original. There are limited ways to house a propeller within a motor so many water pumps look similar to each other. Personally I cannot see how the Tunze design is a whole lot different than other pumps in the market such as Koralia. Knockoffs are usually made of poor quality materials and won't last. Knockoffs are made and sold everywhere in the world, including USA. People has the right to choose and buy knockoffs and who are we to judge their purchasing decisions.

Patient infringement, on the other hand, is an entirely different subject and needs to be protected internationally.

If Jebao infringes on Tunze's patent, we should have heard or soon will hear about it regardless if China recognizes it or not. Patient infringement impacts my purchasing decision much more than copying the original. If you look at the whole package of the Jebao WP40 including the controller, I think Jebao improves the performance of the design. The soon to be released WP25 has the potential to outperform pumps of similar size already on the market.

 

[smkooq]

A knockoff is a copy of the original. There are limited ways to house a propeller within a motor so many water pumps look similar to each other. Personally I cannot see how the Tunze design is a whole lot different than other pumps in the market such as Koralia. Knockoffs are usually made of poor quality materials and won't last. Knockoffs are made and sold everywhere in the world, including USA. People has the right to choose and buy knockoffs and who are we to judge their purchasing decisions.

Patient infringement, on the other hand, is an entirely different subject and needs to be protected internationally.

If Jebao infringes on Tunze's patent, we should have heard or soon will hear about it regardless if China recognizes it or not. Patient infringement impacts my purchasing decision much more than copying the original. If you look at the whole package of the Jebao WP40 including the controller, I think Jebao improves the performance of the design. The soon to be released WP25 has the potential to outperform pumps of similar size already on the market.

The problem is, your generalizing the term "knockoff" into a single propagandistic view.

I'm not judging anyone if you buy a knockoff. But generally speaking (not talking about the current topic) people who can't afford or justify the cost of the actual replicated product, buys the knockoff versions. And yes there are thousands of knockoffs on the market that are not infringing patent laws that are successful.


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[rtparty]

A knockoff is a copy of the original. There are limited ways to house a propeller within a motor so many water pumps look similar to each other. Personally I cannot see how the Tunze design is a whole lot different than other pumps in the market such as Koralia. Knockoffs are usually made of poor quality materials and won't last. Knockoffs are made and sold everywhere in the world, including USA. People has the right to choose and buy knockoffs and who are we to judge their purchasing decisions.

Patient infringement, on the other hand, is an entirely different subject and needs to be protected internationally.

If Jebao infringes on Tunze's patent, we should have heard or soon will hear about it regardless if China recognizes it or not. Patient infringement impacts my purchasing decision much more than copying the original. If you look at the whole package of the Jebao WP40 including the controller, I think Jebao improves the performance of the design. The soon to be released WP25 has the potential to outperform pumps of similar size already on the market.

Yes, this:

Is identical to this:

 

[Ron Reefman]

Are you trying to state that for a product to be a knockoff, it must be under patent infringement?

It can be a knockoff without patent infringement, but it would be a completely legal one and nobody would care (not that anybody does now). So I wouldn't care.

On the other hand, if ANYBODY could prove any kind of patent infringement by Jebao on Tunze by the WP40, even I would have serious reservations about buying one.

And Jack, I don't care that they are in China and can do whatever they want. That's just your way of ducking the issue that you have no way to prove that any patent laws have been broken, China or no China. It's all a BIG ASSUMPTION on your part. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just saying if you feel Jebao has done something that should be considered wrong, like patent infringement, you need to be the one to offer proof. Don't pass it off to the defense, we don't believe you are right in the first place, so why would I spend the time finding out?

And rtparty, It's not identical. Sure, it's similar, but so are half a dozen other pumps. And that's just the general shape. And that gets you all PO'ed at Jebao? Really?

You guys are pretty funny. Have fun, I have better things to do. I'm out of here.