My 1000l Fowlr Tank(from China)

[clekchau]

yes some public aquariums are inhumane, as i reiterate, the mirage is one of them who's only goal is to stuff as many fish as possible into an aquarium

my aquarium? it is currently being set up, it is 3 times the size as cool china's with proposed stocking bout 1/3 the fish, i'll let you know how it turns out.

regarding his effort, you must mean the effort he takes in buying fish and switching them out consistently, as i have not seen many fish from the beginning to end except the imperator, where is the annularis? where are the 4 frenchs? where are the 4 queens? scribbled? chrysuras? maculoucus? asfur? and those are just the angels, what about the dusserei tang, the sohal, the powder blue, the achilles, the moorish idol, the.... should i even go on? ok i will, the flagfin, the passer, the koran....... yes all those fish have been in and out of his overstocked tank at one time or another, so pardon me if i don't applaud his "effort" as you do

 

[jacmyoung]

No I meant his great effort in setting up the system (equipment, time and effort), and from the chronological displays I saw his number of fish increasing nicely, to the point it seemed over-crowded in appearance yet still healthy.

I for one will never viciously attack any of my fellow hobbyists even if some of them do not belong in this hobby, much less this tank owner who has shared his great work for all of us to admire.

Most of us have gone through ups and downs in this business over the years and been humbled by the experiences.

Now let's see yours.

 

[clekchau]

you are obviously ignoring my post

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8527520#post8527520 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by clekchau
my aquarium? it is currently being set up, it is 3 times the size as cool china's with proposed stocking bout 1/3 the fish, i'll let you know how it turns out.

that is the status of my aquarium, i will let you know how it turns out, my current fish are a yellow tang and a dogface puffer, both over 8 years old residing in a 150 gallon rubbermaid stock tank, before they were in a 200 gallon oceanic before that aquarium was sold to make way for my new 600 gallon aquarium.

viscious attack? trust me, there is nothing viscious about it, it's the plain truth, his aquarium is overstocked and his fish are interchanged weekly giving it a "healthy appearance". i thought the purpose of a message forum was to share thoughts, ideas, and opinions, i didn't realize we had to agree with everyone's tank husbandry regardless of how wrong it is

again, excuse me if i don't admire an overstocked tank full of obviously new fish.

let me give you an example because i think you are confusing healthy "looking" newly added fish to a long lasting healthy aquarium

look at this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCbMGnzQ3go

notice how overstocked that is? now notice how healthy the fish look? that is a newly set up aquarium overstocked just for a video. however, keep those fish in that tank for any extended period of time and i'll guarantee you half would be dead. how this point escapes you is boggling my mind.

 

[jacmyoung]

I'll say this one last time, show us your tanks and fish (whatever you have or had in the past) and let us determine how much care you have given to your livestock. It is not difficult to uplink some old tank photos or new ones on your planning stages. Talk is cheap.

This tank owner has shown us the amount of effort he has put into his setup for all of us to see, whether we agree on his way of doing things or not, he has shown us the money, that is what really matters.

 

[clekchau]

and i'll say it one last time, i don't agree with his stocking methods and i never will

not that my tank in the past or future matters but you will see it in due time trust me i can't wait for it to get up and running

all the tank shows is he can overstock his tank and buy new fish to replace his old fish, again i'll ask, where do you think all his other angels went to? i count at least 12 that used to be in his tank and are not now... i know you won't answer that question as we all know the answer, they are probably all dead, yet this is what you are encouraging..... nice

you do things your way and i'll do things mine but rest assured if there is something i don't agree with as in a massively overstocked tank i'll state my opinion regardless of you like it or not

 

[clekchau]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8511175#post8511175 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by clekchau
i can't see how anyone could advocate a typical hong kong angelfish aquarium

i don't care if you have a million dollars in equipment and do a daily water change, how anyone can condone and encourage these kinds of aquariums is beyond me

 

[clekchau]

jacmyoung, do you also encourage this aquarium or did you even go to the link and view the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCbMGnzQ3go

 

[marcrothschild]

Way to ruin a thread guys. Dont you have anything more meaningful to do than spend your time flaming threads?

 

[clekchau]

didn't mean to flame anyone, just offering my opinion on the tank husbandry and stocking level of tank in question as many other people have in this thread .......

 

[lux_06]

lol he can post all he likes on chinease forums and get compliments, but if you decide to post in an area that in general has a different approach to keeping fish then what do you expect?

 

[MGB]

The following comments are general thoughts, relavent but not aimed at the tank or person who started this thread.

Keeping wild produced fish or any other type of animal for that matter, in captivity, often initiates mixed feelings and emotions from people. We all agree that a glass tank, even with a high tech support system, is never going to completely replicate the wild environment, the question then becomes one of personal ethics.

Marine fish are relatively delicate organisms, evolving over millions of years to certain niches. It has become apparent from hobbyists experiences that certain species adapt better to the captive environment than the majority. The future of the hobby of keeping marine fish, depends on people making ethical decisions about which fish to keep and how best to maintain them. The aquarium industry is obviously not the threat to the worlds coral reefs that global warming or pollution is, however that still doesn't excuse any incidental needless waste of reef fish.

What enjoyment can be found from constantly replacing beautiful fish that just don't stand a reasonable chance of survival in captivity. I have no personal experience of keeping several large marine angel species together, however if you read the current literature available, it seams it would be a difficult task at best.

Weather the tank in question "works" as far as being a reasonable captive environment for all those fish, depends on ones ethical standard. To some, replacing a dead fish every week is part of the hobby, however I like to think we've come a little further ethically and that the majority of hobbyists are striving for much more. That's definitely a good thing!

MGB

 

[Mahlhavoc]

That was VERY well said and could not of done a better job myself than what you just did, it made me feel really good to know there are others out there who want to make more of an effort to preserve the integrity of our hobby.

cheers x 2

 

[jacmyoung]

Let's not wave the word "ethics" as a badge of honor to claim self righteousness in this hobby, please.

First off, some people may have different taste in what is an appealing aquarium, his tank environment is not too different than many of the public aquariums out there. Whether he was successful in keeping those fish is debatable, but he sure had gone above and beyond the effort necessary, to the extent of the limitations he had, such as limited space.

If any of you had gone to your local LFS it is clear their handling of livestock is inhumane. The way they discard fish and coral can make you cringe, yet that is the only way for many to stay in the business. Spending any more time and energy to care for less than the most healthy arrivals means closing doors and yield to their competitors. And multiply the process many times from the ocean to your doorstep, I wouldn't be surprised 90% would have perished.

And who are those that support such practice? We marine hobbyists as a collective whole do. In order to have a piece of ocean at home for our entertainment, 90% of the livestock would have been wasted in the process. The only way to resolve this ethical dilemma will be to ban this hobby all together. And good luck with that.

So as a hobbyist, my pride and joy rest on the fact that I have made the best effort so those lucky few that end up in my tank receive the best care possible for my entertainment. I can't achieve my goal based on the slightest ethical standard. How can you when you know full well 90% of the livestock have died for us to afford our own little amusement?

Our hobby is not ethical, anyone who thinks so is either in denial or a hypocrite. These last words are for those self-righteous few, for the rest of the hobbyists, they were of course uttered with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek.

 

[K-ROK]

Do we know for sure that 90% perish on their trip from the ocean to our homes? Even though I'm sure the journey is a stressful one for them, 90% seems a bit high.

 

[lux_06]

well eitherway its a bad example to be setting in a public arena, IF livestock demise is that high then we should be using these forums as a place to advertise good practise to keep our hobby possible, and the least destructive to the habitat as possible. and on the whole i think this happens.

IMHO - i dont like too look at this tank but when you see how bad the polution is in china, and the blatant disregard for the enviroment as a whole..... those fish in that tank are nothing.....

 

[jacmyoung]

If you start to think those places where the unethical treatment of fish occur, are also the places we get our fish from...

As far as good practice in LFS, I have seen a few do so, and none of them lasted very long in the business.

And what about the commonly preached practice of buying only those that the most healthy and eating fish? How about take home the sick ones for a change and nurse them back to health?

The truth is if we are to use our most ethical standards to measure how we do in this hobby, this hobby will no longer be fun and will lose attraction fast, we might as well find something else to spend our time and money.

 

[clekchau]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8541504#post8541504 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jacmyoung
So as a hobbyist, my pride and joy rest on the fact that I have made the best effort so those lucky few that end up in my tank receive the best care possible for my entertainment. I can't achieve my goal based on the slightest ethical standard.

i agree and disagree. in my opinion one cannot justify the ill treatment of fish due to the methods and survival rate of the supplier/distributor. i cannot simply condone or encourage an aquarium so densely populated and it's specimens interchanged so frequently, sorry but that is on the opposite spectrum of "best care possible" in my humble opinion.


btw someone mentioned quality of life in china, here are some links to the aquarium trade in china, much different than ours... or is it?

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/travel/Norfolk_1cChina_.Beijing_Arcade.html

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/travel/Norfolk_4cChina_Jiangyin_Road.html

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/travel/Norfolk_5China_Restaurant_Fish.html

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/travel/Norfolk_Hong Kong.html

 

[ycnibrc]

well they 1billion and 300 million people versus to we have 300 million people. There is no space to put fish in the aquarium to sell so fish have to stay in plastic bag. If they don't sell the fish then their kids starve at night so you take your pick. Fish in the bag or your kid starve at night. we live here in the USA and we have all the opportunity in the world to live a good life other people don't have that chance so they have to survive with what they have. I don't really care how many fishes he can put in his tank. It's his tank and he can do what ever he want. If we like it or don't like it he doesn't really care. I just like to look at the fish picture..... May he own one of those fish store so at night he take the fishes home and put in the tank to take picture so you can look at it and argue and in the morning back to the plastic bag...

 

[jacmyoung]

Apparently he wasn't one of those billions of people in China who are trying to make ends meet. Still he had made much effort and apparently had amused many readers who enjoyed the exchanges until one or two strong-minded persons decided to come and rack it for us.

We all have opinions and sometimes so strong that it became incomprehensionable that others do not agree. Even so please remember the phrase "agree to disagree" instead of hopping on the same point over and over.

If you found it objectionable, you are more than welcome to come and state your point and leave, never to come back, but don't expect everyone to agree or change mind. A more constructive way of going about your particular quest would be to start your own thread, show people by example how your practice is something readers can admire.

Or talk to the moderators about it, after all the moderators are charged with removing or discourage certain threads they deem inappropriate or inhumane, not your average members.

 

[clekchau]

why would a moderator lock/remove this thread? it's an exchange of differing opinions regardless of how many times or ways those opinions are expressed. i see no "viscious" flaming in this thread deemed lock worthy.

maybe you should pm a mod to lock it since it obviously bothers you that people would criticize this aquarium.

btw, you have never responded to any of the questions i directed towards you. i guess you are practicing what your preach ie "state your point and leave".