My journey using Chloroquine Phosphate begins...

Day 3 for the trigger,I only see a couple of spots and is eating and acting normal.I have a MI comeing in today at the lfs,would it be ok to put the MI,in qt with the trigger.I was thinking that I would start back to day 1 of qt for the trigger.The qt is dosed at 80mg/g now.

JMO; but I wouldn't QT a MI with a trigger. A MI wouldn't handle that kind of potential aggression well. And then there's the whole trying to get the finicky MI to eat while the trigger is gobbling everything up. Is it at least a small trigger?

On a more positive note, I have ran at least 2 MI thru CP. Both had a positive outcome.
 
The lfs is qt the MI,it showed signs of ich and they are using cupermine .They are holding it for 10 days.
Day 4 for the trigger,no visiable spots and eating normal.
 
Chloroquine dosing and other considerations

Chloroquine dosing and other considerations

Hello fellow reefers.

I started my journey to eradicate cryptocaryon from my DT a few months ago, and have had quite a few deaths, including some in QT of newly-acquired fish. This has led me to do some research on the drug as it's used in humans, which I thought I would share.

Some caveats:
-I know and respect that many people have had great results with the 10mg/l dose that is commonly used
-I have read that public aquaria use food as a vehicle for feeding the drug to fish
-I am not advising anyone to change their practice based on my recommendations. I'm just sharing information and asking some questions

From studies in people, using chloroquine for treatment or prophylaxis of malaria:

Toxicity:
-Chloroquine has a low margin of safety; the therapeutic, toxic and lethal doses are very close
-Cardiotoxicity may be seen with serum levels of 1 mg/L (one tenth the dose recommended for cryptocaryon prophylaxis in our hobby)
-Serum levels reported in fatal cases have ranged from 1 to 210 mg/L (average, 60 mg/L)
-Acute overdose:Onset of effects is within 30 minutes. Death within 3 hrs.
-Chronic toxicity can cause loss of appetite, blindness, and heart failure
Implications: knowing the lowest effective dose is very important. Anecdotal evidence from aquarists suggests that 5mg/l may not be enough, so 10mg/l seems to be the lowest effective dose, though I have lost small surgeonfish to what looked like acute toxicity at this dose. (I have found surgeonfish to be the most sensitive to this medication's toxic effects)

Absorption and elimination:

-This material is rapidly and almost completely absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract. Peak plasma concentrations within 1-2 hrs.
-Chloroquine is rapidly widely distributed into body tissues. Concentration in the tissues/organs are 10-700 times greater than those in plasma
-Considerable interindividual variations in serum concentration of chloroquine have been reported.
-Drug elimination is very slow. Terminal half-life is 278hrs-60days (different studies)
Implications: chloroquine is rapidly absorbed from the water fish drink (it is very water-soluble) and, once in the fish's body is likely eradicating the trophont stage quickly and may provide protection from reinfection for a long period of time (weeks to months)

Chemical properties:
-the drug is highly water soluble
Implications: once in the tank water, the fish is drinking it in continuously and probably develops therapeutic levels in its tissues fairly quickly (hours)
-the drug is ~50% protein-bound
Implications: protein skimmer should be turned off until you are ready to begin removing the drug from the water
- The drug is listed in one source as being "œsensitive to light"
Implications: Unclear. There is a study from UK that I cannot get full access to that addresses this "“ if anyone can get the full paper we would all appreciate it. Here it is: Photodegradation studies on chloroquine phosphate by high-performance liquid chromatography Elfatih I.A. Karim

The drug reportedly only kills the trophont (in the fish), but not the tomont (encysted reproductive stage which can survive for up to 60 days stuck to substrate/rocks. I do not know if if the theront (free swimming) or protomont (drops off the fish to encyst and become protected as a tomont) are succeptible to the chloroquine in the water.
Obviously the tomont is the problem as it is protected from the drug and can live a long time (probably longer than the medication is viable in the water).

Based on the above, I have modified my quarantine protocol as follows:
1. Use a clean, dry, bare tank with freshly made saltwater with 10mg/l (40mg/gal) of chloroquine phosphate base already in it to introduce new fish into as the initial QT. (If I continue to have deaths with surgeonfish at this dose I may reduce the dose for that species in the future). I may or may not use a sponge filter in that tank "“ more likely dose with Prime daily to keep ammonia in check. I currently use seeded sponge filters in my QT and some PVC elbows.
2. Keep the fish in the initial tank for three days: rationale is that within that period all of the tromonts in the fish should be dead and all of the tomonts have dropped off the fish.
3. After 3 days move the fish to a new, clean QT "“ this one with seeded sponge filters. I plan to keep the fish there for 1 week before moving it to the DT. Rationale: there should not be any tomonts in the new tank, and even if one or two protomonts drops off the fish inte the new tank it's unlikely to mature enough to release tomites within one week of developing.

Your opinions about this are solicited.
 
interesting information, good thoughts, thanks

I place all newly acquired fish into QT without meds for a few days to a wk, to get them adjusted and eating well. I've found CP to curb the appetite of fish, especially after a second dose. I then add CP at 40mg/gal one time dose for an additional 10 days minimum. However if I observe any disease the time period is extended, sometimes for 2-3 months if needed. In addition I may remove the CP with a large WC/carbon and treat with other meds during this time if necessary. I've found CP to be effective even at very low doses, around 10mg/gal.
 
Dr. X:
Leave your fish in the CP or QS for at least 5 days...effectiveness of the Quinine compounds does not show until it is in the bloodstream of the fish... takes 4 days.
 
Dr. X:
Leave your fish in the CP or QS for at least 5 days...effectiveness of the Quinine compounds does not show until it is in the bloodstream of the fish... takes 4 days.

May I ask how you know that? In humans, the drug reaches peak plasma levels (the time after ingestion that the medication reaches the highest level in the bloodstream) in 1-2 hours.

With that in mind, the question that needs to be answered is how long it takes for the medication to reach the parasite embedded in the tissues of the fish and then how long it takes for all of those parasites to die. The former question is probably "hours" after ingestion, because the chemical is highly lipophilic. The latter question I have no answer for.
 
May I ask how you know that? In humans, the drug reaches peak plasma levels (the time after ingestion that the medication reaches the highest level in the bloodstream) in 1-2 hours.

With that in mind, the question that needs to be answered is how long it takes for the medication to reach the parasite embedded in the tissues of the fish and then how long it takes for all of those parasites to die. The former question is probably "hours" after ingestion, because the chemical is highly lipophilic. The latter question I have no answer for.

these type of questions are impossible to answer without doing very sophisticated measurements, however I've been using CP for many years and had very poor outcomes keeping fish in QT with CP for 5 days before introducing them into the DT, it was too short a time period in my experience
 
Since the only way the fish gets medicated is drinking water and or osmosis, it seems reasonable to me that it would take at least several days for the CP in the water to be in whatever equilibrium it ends up being in with the fish. I’d expect different equilibriums for different fish. But IDK.
 
Elliott and Salty Joe,

You both make excellent points. Once again I remind folks of my caveat: your experience trumps my theory all day long. There are too many variables and too much that we don't know and that has not been studied.

That stated, I will humbly pursue my previous thoughts in the hope that someone has the answers I seek.

Questions:
Does the fish drinking CP in liquid form raise the plasma concentration as quickly as taking CP in the tablet form?
There are multiple studies in humans looking at methods to deliver the drug in liquid rather than tablet form. These studies were performed so that malaria can be treated in children in endemic areas. Because the chemical is so bitter, different liquids have been tried to make it more palatable for children who cannot take pills. So, in bolus form, the answer is yes.
In our example, the drug is in the entire body of water the fish is swimming in all day long. In a liter of the water there is 10mg of drug. How much of that 10 mg is the fish absorbing, and how quickly? I suppose it depends on how much the fish drinks each day. If it drinks a liter per day then it absorbs 10 mg each day (not sure my math is right here).
So,
1. How much does the fish drink a day?
2. Is there absorption through other than through the GI tract in the fish? Likely the gills and much faster than through the GI tract.
3. What is the serum concentration needed to treat crypt in fish? (probably depends on the variant of the crypt)
4. How long does it take to kill all of the parasite present in the fish?
You're betting 5 days. I'm betting 3. Your suggestion makes a lot of sense given questions 1-4.
My rationale for 3 days was that I don't want to risk a fish in a filterless system for more than 3 days, Prime or no Prime. Your questions made me reconsider to at least 5 days, maybe longer. To do this I will have to put in a mature sponge filter. This is probably OK.
Thanks guys!
 
You can use your DT water for water changes in your QT, so it's not necessary to run a filter at all. My QT is always up and running as a separate system with a sump and skimmer. I don't believe one must remove the skimmer when treating with CP, even though CP is protein bound. Skimmers are just not that efficient and any CP it would remove would be insignificant, IMO.

For me, the most important part of the QT process is observation. So a longer period of time allows more opportunity to discover disease and observe the behavior. I have learned not to be in a hurry to transfer fish from QT to DT.

In my experience the most important variable is eating. When that stops the immune system gets progressively weaker, making it more and more difficult to turn things around. So a big part of the QT process is initially getting fish to eat without competition and stress from other tank inhabitants.

As I mentioned I used to quarantine for 5 days. This turned out to be way too short and I ended up transferring sick and maladjusted fish into the DT. Fish often die without any outward signs of disease, probably from organ failure from too high of copper levels in their holding tanks. Its better to allow fish to die in QT than risk contamination of the DT.
 
I am on day seven with the trigger,eating and acting normal.Still no spots are present.The tank is dosed at 80mg/g.Do I need to treat it a whole month or 2 weeks then remove cp.It will go through prazi after the cp treatment.
 
I am on day seven with the trigger,eating and acting normal.Still no spots are present.The tank is dosed at 80mg/g.Do I need to treat it a whole month or 2 weeks then remove cp.It will go through prazi after the cp treatment.

Because it showed spots initially I would treat for a minimum of 30 days, then remove CP and observe for 7 - 14 days. If it showed spots again I would repeat the process again
 
The studies are out there for velvet. I can't pull them right now, but from memory the gills began clearing without hours of treatment. I've posted many of the findings in earlier posts here or different threads. With a search, many of your questions are answered. We seem to be reinventing the wheel.

There may be direct binding and cellular uptake there by affecting the lysosomes and endosomes without a need for plasma levels within the fish. You are also assuming that the mechanism of action is the same. Not sure if that is the case. I have also read reports the the therapeutic index is quite wide in fish in an oral ingestion study, unlike humans.
 
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