Shanet
New member
As he says ^^^^
My journey using Chloroquine Phosphate begins...
- Thread starter b0bab0ey
- Start date
As he says ^^^^
president89
New member
Does anyone have experience with CP in the presence of spawning clownfish with Eggs? I have atleast 1 clownfish within my breeding clown system(5 pairs) that has what I think is Marine Ich. Will this treatment hurt existing eggs and will it stop my pairs from spawning? I could remove the one clown and treat her in QT, but that would leave the tank infected.
jduck
Member
I have used it in my breeding system when a pair came down with velvet. One other pair even spawned during the treatment time.
My journey using Chloroquine Phosphate begins...
No success with the CP from ebay. Ich appeared twice in my tank during treatment, second time being the worst for my sohal. Ttm it is.
If I had to try cp again, I would try ick shield powder from NLS.
however, there was white film and weird smell from my tank, so maybe the cp wasn't pure or potent enough.
No success with the CP from ebay. Ich appeared twice in my tank during treatment, second time being the worst for my sohal. Ttm it is.
If I had to try cp again, I would try ick shield powder from NLS.
however, there was white film and weird smell from my tank, so maybe the cp wasn't pure or potent enough.
Deinonych
New member
TTM is the right call. I had challenges treating Crypto with CP, and I know the CP was the real stuff (was filled by a pharmacy). Since changing my protocol to TTM, I haven't had to deal with Crypto, period. I'll keep the CP on hand in case I ever have to deal with velvet, though.
3FordFamily
In Memoriam
So umm this is not reef safe I gather?
president89
New member
Try this seller. I had success with his CP. - Unclerobertsgarage
Not Reef Safe
president89
New member
1. You have to get the fish to eat it.
2. It's a much lower dose
3. I've had better results with ebay - nothing against NLS, it's just not as potent.
It certainly won't hurt, and it will last you longer since you can feed any time a fish is infected.
jbvdhp
Active member
jbvdhp
Active member
I know you were, Andy.
There was another member who made reference to the pellet good form, perhaps they were unaware that it comes in a bath solution.
Folks, I'm new to replying here, but I've been following the thread for over a year and have treated twice with CP now....failed to properly eradicate ich either time, but I have some data that many of you will find important, because I'm in the unique position of knowing why I failed!
First, I am a chemist with expertise in the chemical behavior of drug molecules (with a long publication and patent history), and my boss allowed me to tag a few extra samples onto the HPLC at work occasionally.
The first time I did this a year ago, I found CP to degrade to other molecules with a half-life of 9-11 days.....If you follow the instructions given in this thread, I believe you would cure ich in your tank. Unfortunately, I also noticed my some of my tangs getting lethargic and not eating after a few weeks of treatment, so I tossed in some carbon to give them a brief CP holiday.....that is probably the reason for my initial failure.
I had another outbreak last fall (again, I'm convinced I failed to eradicate the first time). I treated the fish in a QT instead of the DT this time and left the tank fallow for 12 weeks, but wasn't diligent in monitoring drug levels....I just assumed it would work in the bare bottom tank, and no fish died.
After returning the fish to the higher light enviroment, I notice a single white spot on my purple tang. 2 months later, I'm here again treating in my DT.
Something really disturbing has happened:
I monitored the drug level and notice it falling with an apparent half-life of 4 days. I thought this was due to initial losses, but I noticed a single degradate appearing in my water samples.....and it's growth continued to accelerate. I left on vacation for two weeks, leaving little baggies of CP to be added by my house sitter every two days. I came home to heavily ich infested fish.
Analyzing my water, my water contained less than 1 ppm CP....it should have remained well above 12 ppm based on previous calculations. The degradate concentration was through the roof.
I switched to hypo over two days, treating with paraguard (aldehydes + malachite green) until the salinity reached 1.008.
When all water changes were complete I added another 10 ppm of CP and watched it degrade....the entire dose vanished within 36 hours.
No Carbon, minimal lights, skimming on and off......I know from my previous studies and from monitoring over night that my skimmer and lights have minimal effect of [CP].
Once a sample is removed from my tank the CP in that sample stops degrading, completely. I can analyze it repeatedly for the next week and CP doesn't degrade.
The only explanation (I can think of) is the evolution and growth of a bacteria or other microbe within my tank that can "detoxify" CP by converting it to something else. That would explain the different results and the acceleration of decomposition (metabolism) over time. The metabolite is very similar to CP, in that it has the same UV spectrum (and therefore, you cannot rely on a UV spectrometer to measure active CP)
If CP is not working in your system, it seems likely to me that "life has found a way." In this case you must switch your strategy.
For those using CP the first time, I strongly recommend that you hit the parasite hard the first time, because you might not get a second chance. At this point, I think the only way I could use CP again would be to nuke my system....complete eradication of all microbial life and the introduction of a new biological filter from somebody else system.
I don't check my messages often, so responses may be slow. I realize I should add the rest of my data in it's own post someday.
First, I am a chemist with expertise in the chemical behavior of drug molecules (with a long publication and patent history), and my boss allowed me to tag a few extra samples onto the HPLC at work occasionally.
The first time I did this a year ago, I found CP to degrade to other molecules with a half-life of 9-11 days.....If you follow the instructions given in this thread, I believe you would cure ich in your tank. Unfortunately, I also noticed my some of my tangs getting lethargic and not eating after a few weeks of treatment, so I tossed in some carbon to give them a brief CP holiday.....that is probably the reason for my initial failure.
I had another outbreak last fall (again, I'm convinced I failed to eradicate the first time). I treated the fish in a QT instead of the DT this time and left the tank fallow for 12 weeks, but wasn't diligent in monitoring drug levels....I just assumed it would work in the bare bottom tank, and no fish died.
After returning the fish to the higher light enviroment, I notice a single white spot on my purple tang. 2 months later, I'm here again treating in my DT.
Something really disturbing has happened:
I monitored the drug level and notice it falling with an apparent half-life of 4 days. I thought this was due to initial losses, but I noticed a single degradate appearing in my water samples.....and it's growth continued to accelerate. I left on vacation for two weeks, leaving little baggies of CP to be added by my house sitter every two days. I came home to heavily ich infested fish.
Analyzing my water, my water contained less than 1 ppm CP....it should have remained well above 12 ppm based on previous calculations. The degradate concentration was through the roof.
I switched to hypo over two days, treating with paraguard (aldehydes + malachite green) until the salinity reached 1.008.
When all water changes were complete I added another 10 ppm of CP and watched it degrade....the entire dose vanished within 36 hours.
No Carbon, minimal lights, skimming on and off......I know from my previous studies and from monitoring over night that my skimmer and lights have minimal effect of [CP].
Once a sample is removed from my tank the CP in that sample stops degrading, completely. I can analyze it repeatedly for the next week and CP doesn't degrade.
The only explanation (I can think of) is the evolution and growth of a bacteria or other microbe within my tank that can "detoxify" CP by converting it to something else. That would explain the different results and the acceleration of decomposition (metabolism) over time. The metabolite is very similar to CP, in that it has the same UV spectrum (and therefore, you cannot rely on a UV spectrometer to measure active CP)
If CP is not working in your system, it seems likely to me that "life has found a way." In this case you must switch your strategy.
For those using CP the first time, I strongly recommend that you hit the parasite hard the first time, because you might not get a second chance. At this point, I think the only way I could use CP again would be to nuke my system....complete eradication of all microbial life and the introduction of a new biological filter from somebody else system.
I don't check my messages often, so responses may be slow. I realize I should add the rest of my data in it's own post someday.
Thank you for sharing this with us. Very interesting! Using your laboratory, is there a way to calculate the concentration of CP?
The big question is what is causing the degradation of CP? The rapidity of degradation is surprising. I'm not sure how to interpret the results. Its a bit confusing to me.
Translating your laboratory findings into practical use conflicts with my use of CP, assuming the drug I'm using is the same as yours. (Assumption #1) I get mine from fishchemical online
We know that CP inhibits algae growth, so I assume that when algae begins to grow that CP is no longer present or at least below therapeutic levels (Assumption #2)
I have been running CP continuously for years and have rarely had to add more to my QT tanks, as there has been no evidence of algae growth. However I don't know if the CP present is therapeutic. I have been assuming it is (Assumption #3)
I haven't experienced treatment failures like others on this forum and have treated many fish of different types over the years, with the exception of an Achilles tang that I'm convinced has a very low resistance (poor immune system). So I assume the CP in my tank is not degrading rapidly (Assumption #4)
Until we can measure the concentration of CP and determine it's therapeutic level it will be a guessing game trying to understand the correct dose and length of treatment.
laga77,
Mine came from Fishman chemicals and I have validated the composition against a sample from Sigma-Aldrich, who I trust completely.....the two materials are identical.
I would like to make a statement on the purity of material from Fishman. I wish I could comment on other sources, but of course, anybody can advertise anything they like on ebay without evidence.
The fact is, Fishman is not a chemical manufacturer, and bulk drug molecules like this that they can buy and re-sell exist for only one reason: they are useful drugs for humans. They are not produced in one-off labs because they synthesis is complex, and to make it this cheap, you need to be a major manufacturer. I would bet money that this material is made by a company that supplies bulk drug to manufacturers of generic human anti-malarials.....excuses like "treatment failed because I didn't get pure material" are easy to make, but are simply unrealistic...however, if somebody wanted to state that somebody sold them sugar, I would buy it.
Not that I advocate eating prescription drugs obtained without a prescription, but your material should be very bitter.
A couple other characteristics:
the phosphate (actually diphosphate) is highly soluble in water. If you have a pH meter, your aqueous solution should be fairly acidic. If you add a strong base, like a sodium carbonate solution, free chloroquine will precipitate out of solution as a goop. Unfortunately, I can't think of any other tests available to the home aquarist to test for authenticity, but I'll see what I can come up with.
Mine came from Fishman chemicals and I have validated the composition against a sample from Sigma-Aldrich, who I trust completely.....the two materials are identical.
I would like to make a statement on the purity of material from Fishman. I wish I could comment on other sources, but of course, anybody can advertise anything they like on ebay without evidence.
The fact is, Fishman is not a chemical manufacturer, and bulk drug molecules like this that they can buy and re-sell exist for only one reason: they are useful drugs for humans. They are not produced in one-off labs because they synthesis is complex, and to make it this cheap, you need to be a major manufacturer. I would bet money that this material is made by a company that supplies bulk drug to manufacturers of generic human anti-malarials.....excuses like "treatment failed because I didn't get pure material" are easy to make, but are simply unrealistic...however, if somebody wanted to state that somebody sold them sugar, I would buy it.
Not that I advocate eating prescription drugs obtained without a prescription, but your material should be very bitter.
A couple other characteristics:
the phosphate (actually diphosphate) is highly soluble in water. If you have a pH meter, your aqueous solution should be fairly acidic. If you add a strong base, like a sodium carbonate solution, free chloroquine will precipitate out of solution as a goop. Unfortunately, I can't think of any other tests available to the home aquarist to test for authenticity, but I'll see what I can come up with.
president89
New member
Amen to that.
Elliot,
The concentration is easy to measure by HPLC, you simply have to make a calibration curve against a known standard from a reputable source. Unfortunately, HPLC (High performance/pressure/price Liquid Chromatography) is not accessible to the home user, not only for price, but for the logistical reasons of receiving solvents and properly disposing of them. The technique separates components before measuring their concentration, unlike standard UV spectrometers.
There is no reason the microbe responsible (I'm 95% confident the breakdown is a bacterial process) will grow in any given tank, or that it is not already present in one individuals tank. Life is a matter of probabilities. However, I've always wondered about my decision last fall to add "microbacter 7" to my tank along with sugar/vodka to control nitrates. I'm guessing that this is a bacteria that doesn't exist naturally in our tanks.....pure speculation here....nothing scientific.....btw.....best way EVER to lower nitrates in combo with a protein skimmer, and no white stringy bacterial colonies in the process!
Regarding your algae elimination, that's terrific, but of course, no guaranty that CP remains at an active level. Depends on how well you eradicated your algae with CP, whether you've added new algae spores of the right type after CP's gone to begin new growth, and many other factors we could pull out in a brainstorm that may be legit or not.
Regarding your achilles tang, yes, I could believe something like that....I have a purple tang who seems to be very resistant to the cure. I'm a believer in the "CP kills the parasite on the fish by prevent crystallization of heme in the parasite gut" theory, as the evidence for this happening in the malaria parasite in humans is rather convincing. If ich feeds on red blood cells, than this is likely, and it does seem to me that the CP-laced foods work well if my fish eat them (they slow down progression of the infestation enough to implement a proper plan, IMO). Of course, based on the microbe mediated degradation theory, CP would not be degraded before the fish eat it and it would be concentrated in the fish tissue.
Here's where the problem comes in: CP, like any other drug, is absorbed after ingestion, and of course fish ingest water with CP in it. Any individual can possess or develop enzymes in their liver that chop a given drug to pieces and render it ineffective, thereby keeping it from building in the tissue and doing whatever it's supposed to do. People do this (common human example: codeine is not a very effective pain reliever in those individuals who don't possess the enzyme to convert it to morphine in their liver).
It is possible that your achilles tang and my purple tang resist the absorption of CP, either by lacking an enzyme necessary for uptake, or by very efficiently eliminating it from their bodies. This would have the effect of leaving a fish in a tank during a fallow period and is unpredictable. I'm not aware of definitive literature describing the actual stages during which CP can kill ich.....clearly if CP effiecintly kills in the free swimming or other stages, CP would work more like copper, and individual fish who happen to be poor absorbers could not be carriers. If the heme crystallization theory is correct, than CP would have to kill those other stages through an alternate biological mechanism since only a feeding parasite consumes blood.
I guess my take home is that careful observation is essential, and if you have reason to believe that CP is failing you, it's time to switch tactics.
....now if I could just come up with a strategy to eliminate or inhibit whatever is causing loss of CP in my tank!!!
The concentration is easy to measure by HPLC, you simply have to make a calibration curve against a known standard from a reputable source. Unfortunately, HPLC (High performance/pressure/price Liquid Chromatography) is not accessible to the home user, not only for price, but for the logistical reasons of receiving solvents and properly disposing of them. The technique separates components before measuring their concentration, unlike standard UV spectrometers.
There is no reason the microbe responsible (I'm 95% confident the breakdown is a bacterial process) will grow in any given tank, or that it is not already present in one individuals tank. Life is a matter of probabilities. However, I've always wondered about my decision last fall to add "microbacter 7" to my tank along with sugar/vodka to control nitrates. I'm guessing that this is a bacteria that doesn't exist naturally in our tanks.....pure speculation here....nothing scientific.....btw.....best way EVER to lower nitrates in combo with a protein skimmer, and no white stringy bacterial colonies in the process!
Regarding your algae elimination, that's terrific, but of course, no guaranty that CP remains at an active level. Depends on how well you eradicated your algae with CP, whether you've added new algae spores of the right type after CP's gone to begin new growth, and many other factors we could pull out in a brainstorm that may be legit or not.
Regarding your achilles tang, yes, I could believe something like that....I have a purple tang who seems to be very resistant to the cure. I'm a believer in the "CP kills the parasite on the fish by prevent crystallization of heme in the parasite gut" theory, as the evidence for this happening in the malaria parasite in humans is rather convincing. If ich feeds on red blood cells, than this is likely, and it does seem to me that the CP-laced foods work well if my fish eat them (they slow down progression of the infestation enough to implement a proper plan, IMO). Of course, based on the microbe mediated degradation theory, CP would not be degraded before the fish eat it and it would be concentrated in the fish tissue.
Here's where the problem comes in: CP, like any other drug, is absorbed after ingestion, and of course fish ingest water with CP in it. Any individual can possess or develop enzymes in their liver that chop a given drug to pieces and render it ineffective, thereby keeping it from building in the tissue and doing whatever it's supposed to do. People do this (common human example: codeine is not a very effective pain reliever in those individuals who don't possess the enzyme to convert it to morphine in their liver).
It is possible that your achilles tang and my purple tang resist the absorption of CP, either by lacking an enzyme necessary for uptake, or by very efficiently eliminating it from their bodies. This would have the effect of leaving a fish in a tank during a fallow period and is unpredictable. I'm not aware of definitive literature describing the actual stages during which CP can kill ich.....clearly if CP effiecintly kills in the free swimming or other stages, CP would work more like copper, and individual fish who happen to be poor absorbers could not be carriers. If the heme crystallization theory is correct, than CP would have to kill those other stages through an alternate biological mechanism since only a feeding parasite consumes blood.
I guess my take home is that careful observation is essential, and if you have reason to believe that CP is failing you, it's time to switch tactics.
....now if I could just come up with a strategy to eliminate or inhibit whatever is causing loss of CP in my tank!!!
good to know the fishmanchemical CP is legit, I had no reason to believe it wasn't
also that the degradation was arrested in your sample vessels, which I guess supports sustained levels in my QT tanks, at least plausible
would be interesting if you set up another CP medicated tank and again measured it's concentration over time (without microbacter7/vodka)
