My journey using Chloroquine Phosphate begins...

[mattcoug]

I recently had been treating with eBay CP and then bought ich shield to treat with again since I noticed my clown tang scratching again. I dosed the ich shield at 40mg/g instead of the 30mg or 8ppm it recommends and did not have good results at all. All fish stopped eating that had been eating and everything I had died, except my 1spot foxface who hasn't eaten in 3 wks and is breathing heavily and has been for weeks. When I tore down my hospital tank I found Amphipods all over my rock that was in the hospital tank. I'm still at a loss for what killed all my fish ( I thought it was too high a dosage of CP, but after finding the Amphipods everywhere I don't think this was the case. I'm at a complete loss

Luckily my GF has a PhD in organic chemistry; she pointed out that NLS IckShield is claiming the active ingredient is Chloroquine, not Chloroquine Diphosphate(eBay CP). Based on the molecular weight of the two molecules, 40mg/g of Chloroquine will give an equivalent dose as 64mg/g of Chloroquine Diphosphate.

Based on this, the NLS IckShield recommendation of 30mg/g is equivalent to 48mg/g Chloroquine Diphosphate.

So unless the product label is wrong/incomplete, it sounds like the sticking to 30mg/g or less of IckShield would be best.

I can't see how the lack of phosphate would be bad for the fish. My GF mentioned that Chloroquine Diphosphate would be more stable than Chloroquine, so perhaps the bottle you got could have been exposed to excessive moisture/heat/uv and it was something else when it got to the fish? Was there anything else in the tank at all like copper/pratzi?

 

[mattcoug]

I've had 10 fish in 3 tanks with Ich Shield at 40 mg/g for the last 3 weeks without issue. I have been doing weekly water changes and dosing the makeup at same level.

I ran first 3 weeks and thought I had knocked brook out, but had a couple fish flash a few times so I dosed again after 5 days running carbon. The first round I followed the instructions, but the second round I bumped it to 40mg/g and have had no issues. Yet, knock on wood.

Sorry to hear about your loss.

BTW, I had a breakout of what appeared to be brook in a shared QT, and CP seemed to do nothing to prevent/stop it. Eventually I lost almost all my fish in two tanks. You can check that thread here. I am curious to see if you are able to kill off the brook on all your fish.

 

[todddye]

mattcoug: Thank you for the clarification on dosage. I'm wondering if this would explain why my second round of Ick Shield dosed at 40mg/g seems to be working faster than the first round. Based on my research, the dosage for infestations should be at 60mg/g of CP. Using your calculation of actual Chloroquine, with a 40mg/g dose of Ick Shield I'd have ~63mg/g of Chloroquine which is the recommended dosage for infestations. I've seen very minimal adverse reactions in any of my fish, except for a lawnmower blenny that died with no behavioral issues or external signs of infestations. The only issue I've noticed is temporary appetite suppression after the 3-4th day in some of the fish.

It's been 8 weeks since I removed the fish from my DT, so I'm thinking that the survivors will make it as long as I don't screw up on a dosage during WC. I'm probably going to keep them in QT for another 3 weeks, which will put me well past the 72 day fallow on my DT.

 

[Dmorty217]

Luckily my GF has a PhD in organic chemistry; she pointed out that NLS IckShield is claiming the active ingredient is Chloroquine, not Chloroquine Diphosphate(eBay CP). Based on the molecular weight of the two molecules, 40mg/g of Chloroquine will give an equivalent dose as 64mg/g of Chloroquine Diphosphate.

Based on this, the NLS IckShield recommendation of 30mg/g is equivalent to 48mg/g Chloroquine Diphosphate.

So unless the product label is wrong/incomplete, it sounds like the sticking to 30mg/g or less of IckShield would be best.

I can't see how the lack of phosphate would be bad for the fish. My GF mentioned that Chloroquine Diphosphate would be more stable than Chloroquine, so perhaps the bottle you got could have been exposed to excessive moisture/heat/uv and it was something else when it got to the fish? Was there anything else in the tank at all like copper/pratzi?

No other meds at all in the tank. I called NLS and the owner called me back and spoke with me for 45 mins about the issue I was having and explained something's to me I never I thought about before. He has been keeping fish now for 45 yrs and he told me he has had a Achilles tang in the ich shield for 6 months now with no ill effects... On the flip side of that he also said he got in14 hippo tangs and treated them and all but 1 died

 

[Dmorty217]

Isn't it everyone's assumption/conclusion that CP kills inverts period? I know hermits have been sighted as surviving but I'm still at a loss with all the Amphipods that were in the tank when I tore the QT down.

 

[mattcoug]

No other meds at all in the tank. I called NLS and the owner called me back and spoke with me for 45 mins about the issue I was having and explained something's to me I never I thought about before. He has been keeping fish now for 45 yrs and he told me he has had a Achilles tang in the ich shield for 6 months now with no ill effects... On the flip side of that he also said he got in14 hippo tangs and treated them and all but 1 died

From my experience with brook, I wonder if some untreatable silent parasite killer might kill off the fish when we are assuming the CP is protecting them, then CP gets the blame. I've heard that CP will reduce fish mucus and inflammation, so if there were another parasite, we might not notice the symptoms as easily.

I also suspect fish with weak kidneys might not be able to process the metabolites, and can get "drunk" and perish from an OD. If a fish was in some other medicine or have some stresser then I suppose their kidneys get weaker.

For any fish that die while in CP it would be great to take a look at the gills/skin scrape in microscope to confirm presence other parasites.

In my experience, all the fish that died in CP were killed by what appears to be brook. The christmas wrasse I put into CP/cupramine looked like he was going to die after 1 day so I put him in a separate non-medicated tank and he rapidly recovered.

Thinking about it now, I would be pretty devastated if I find out the CP actually killed my fish and the brook-like parasite just came on their deathbed...

 

[Dmorty217]

I know CP doesn't kill fish but will cause secondary infections on some

 

[Deinonych]

Isn't it everyone's assumption/conclusion that CP kills inverts period? I know hermits have been sighted as surviving but I'm still at a loss with all the Amphipods that were in the tank when I tore the QT down.

Killed all of my snails when I dosed it to the DT earlier this year (tried to remove all the snails, but couldn't get all of them).

I know CP doesn't kill fish but will cause secondary infections on some

I think it suppresses their immune response to an extent.

 

[todddye]

Killed all of my snails when I dosed it to the DT earlier this year (tried to remove all the snails, but couldn't get all of them).



I think it suppresses their immune response to an extent.

That's a good point. CP is used in humans for Rhuematoid Arthritis and Lupus and is well documented to be an immunosuppressive so it stands to reason why CP treated fish commonly get secondary infections.

 

[alprazo]

The suppression of an acute immune response in a condition like velvet or ich is probably beneficial. The gill tissue becomes edematous (filled with fluid) and it is this, causing the inhibition of oxygen exchange, that kills our fish. It is similar to pulmonary edema in humans. I wonder if CP has an effect in reducing gill edema - I doubt it.


Could it suppress the immune system enough to cause a bacterial infection? Maybe,, but realize that a fish infected with Ich or velvet is already sick, has many open areas of entry and therefore also already susceptible to opportunistic infections. Copper also has detrimental effects on the immune system of fish. This is why I always recommend dosing at 10mg/l / 40 mg/gal for a duration of only one month with CP. Esp for healthy fish going through a QT/treatment period.

 

[Lou Young]

Would the use of CP ruin my LR and bioballs?

 

[tkeracer619]

Can someone with a known pure source send me a pm. I'm having a very hard time securing a prescription from my now x vet.

 

[Shanet]

Would the use of CP ruin my LR and bioballs?

I have used CP twice in my FOWLR tank and it doesn't kill the bacteria in the rock but I feel the rock absorbs CP and slowly leaches it for a time afterwards. The reason I say this is it takes time before snails will survive in the tank after dosing CP.

 

[Lou Young]

Can someone with a known pure source send me a pm. I'm having a very hard time securing a prescription from my now x vet.

I saw it on EBay. http://m.ebay.com/itm/231133909031?_mwBanner=1

 

[Shanet]

I bought from this guy, it's the good stuff.

 

[president89]

[violation]...

 

[tc2007]

I had some questions about this treatment.

1) I have a FOWLR + Hermit Crab in my DT. What is everyone's experience with Hermits (red) and the treatment?

2) Do we need to run the skimmer?

3) Does this kill off the ammonia killing bacteria? Do I need to do water changes or alternatively use Prime to remove ammonia? How often?

I have a 90G cube + 10G water in sump.

 

[Shanet]

I had some questions about this treatment.

1) I have a FOWLR + Hermit Crab in my DT. What is everyone's experience with Hermits (red) and the treatment? Wont affect them in my experience

2) Do we need to run the skimmer? I do

3) Does this kill off the ammonia killing bacteria? Do I need to do water changes or alternatively use Prime to remove ammonia? How often? doesnt affect bacteria

I have a 90G cube + 10G water in sump.

 

[tc2007]

Shane, one more question

Does CP cure marine velvet? I had a longnose from Petco (I know now to avoid them) die in 2 days from coming to the store and showing small white spots on fines, and gave my bi-color dotty the spots too. not sure if it is ick or velvet.

 

[president89]

Shane, one more question

Does CP cure marine velvet? I had a longnose from Petco (I know now to avoid them) die in 2 days from coming to the store and showing small white spots on fines, and gave my bi-color dotty the spots too. not sure if it is ick or velvet.

It does cure velvet.