My journey using Chloroquine Phosphate begins...

[alprazo]

Joules,

Your insights as a chemist and efforts are much appreciated. I too have never had a treatment failure in my current treatment tank that has been running for years, so your observations are fascinating.

In humans it is converted to active metabolites, and their half lives are quite long like you first observed. I wonder what is and how your chloroquine is breaking down (dealkylation or other.)

CP is also highly bound to plasma proteins - so possibly protein binding is a problem, but a steady state should develop but if you are seeing an inverse relationship with another solute it is probably degrading.

Do you have a deep sand bed? Are you employing either heterotrophic or autotrophic means for nitrate control? Are you running a UV or using Moon type lights? What type of ambient light exists in the room? Does the tank have areas of low flow - specifically anaerobic or anoxic conditions? Do you dose amino acids or other supplements? CP is suppose to be stored <86F could this be an issue?

As for the source - from pictures of packaging someone sent me from a popular CP online supplier - I was able to trace the source to a firm off Alibaba. Their address was a shared one with many other unrelated companies, actually a "rent an office" type deal. As I sit here and type this, my current chloroquine stash reads "Made in the United Kingdom." When I dose CP - I have never seen the yellow color people describe with the online source nor have I had the failures - except one, early on from an online pharmacy from Canada - that was likely expired. This bulk powder CP that is now available wasn't when I started experimenting with it and I had to purchase 250 mg pills from my pharmacy at $7 a pill. If it had been, I wonder if any of us would be discussing CP today.

Also chloroquine resistant plasmodium - is rampant so the use of chloroquine for prevention in humans is limited. It is also rarely used for inflammatory disorders since hydroxychloroquine has a better side effect profile, is readily available and inexpensive. This is probably why the cost of CP for humans remains expensive. Avian malaria on the other hand remains a problem and though population control for mosquitoes is a better approach, livestock is likely treated with this bulk powder from China where quality control could be an issue since it is unlikely to be manufactured for humans.

Last, Kilos of CP shipped from China and sitting in a warehouse (if climate controlled my bad) in Florida where temps could easily climb above 30C (86F) is a lot different than what one purchases with a prescription from their over regulated drug store or veterinary pharmacy.

I would like to hear more about your DT - please post

My treatment tank -
Size - 125 gal AGA
temp - 70-74
Salinity ~ 35 ppt
light - basement ambient room from a distant sliding glass door two rooms away
Filtration - Fluval FX5
Sandbed - dusting of aragonite
Decor - Scattered liverock
No skimmer, UV, or other equipment
Nitrate, Phosphate, etc - don't care.
Livestock - 8 inch northern stargazer and 15 inch yellow mouth moray. - both have been through 6 plus courses of CP.

 

[alprazo]

I missed you last post. My guess is that the heterotrophic nitrate control likely has something to do with it. Creating a anaerobic denitrator with vodka dosing and testing inflow and effluent water could prove this theory wrong.

 

[Deinonych]

Folks, I'm new to replying here, but I've been following the thread for over a year and have treated twice with CP now....failed to properly eradicate ich either time, but I have some data that many of you will find important, because I'm in the unique position of knowing why I failed!
<snip>

Thank you for posting this. I too had failures using CP when I treated for Cryptocaryon over a year ago. Fish seemed to do well for a week or so, then the spots would return. This was despite using pure CP from a pharmacy, so I was baffled. I've since moved to TTM for elimination of Crypto, and have not had any disease since, but it's good to finally have a better understanding of why my treatment failed.

 

[Joules]

Alzpro....I do need to figure out how to add that little line at the bottom with my tank info....I'll include it the bottom of this reply.

I have also been wondering about the anaerobic bacteria, but my sand bed situation hasn't changed since my initial attempt a year ago, and I wasn't losing CP so fast that time. I did do a very thorough vacuuming and stirring of the sand last weekend after discovering the problem and it had no impact on the degradation rate. Of course, I haven't been been feeding sugar to lower nitrate now that the coral are in a separate system.

Perhaps I'll go purchase a 10g that I can experiment with by adding new salt water and CP, then add in a piece of shrimp to cycle and see what happens if I add microbacter7, sugar, and some extra protein supplements to see what happens. If nothing changes, I could move on to begin adding some sand, zeolite, and filter floss from my DT until the rate changes.....no promises....I don't want to abuse my bosses generosity on the equipment usage.

I found hydroxychloroquine to be very expensive still in the US, but probably cheaper if I get somebody to write me a script. It looks like the molecule or it's use in treating malaria is still under patent in parts of the world, including the US, which always leads to higher prices and more difficulty in obtaining bulk quantities.

Regarding the temperature constraints, I wouldn't worry too much here. The specs we have on drugs are related to less than x% of an unqualified degradate arising at that condition for a given amount of time.....usually X is a very small number....so the efficacy of drug does not really drop that fast. Also, companies typically only test out to two years, and your expiry date cannot go beyond what your data support...these are expensive and time consuming studies, and inventory usually moves faster than that.

Regarding the nature of the degradate, I think a dealkylation at the amine is a fair guess....the degradation has to be far enough away from the aromatic ring system to avoid destruction of that chromophore (to keep the UV spectrum constant). My first guess was formation of the N-oxide, but I added H2O2 to make the N-oxide....the product was inconsistent with the compound forming in my tank. Unfortunately, I don't have access to a mass spec, otherwise, identification would be much easier.


175 g custom L-shape reef, 5.8' long x 21" for 2.8' of length and 30" in the remainder. 50 gallon sump with refugium. Home built LED fixtures using materials from DIY reef using 20% 420 nm near UV, 50% blues at 450-460, 20% cool white, and 10% high noon. Currently all near UV and high noon are unplugged, along with most blue and white. No moon lights. No UV (although I tested an 18 watt UV in my first CP treatment and found that it reduced the half-life of CP from 11 days to 9 days). 2" sand bed bed and bags of nitrate reducer to culture anaerobic bacteria.
Inhabitants: kole tang, pbt, purple tang, yellow wrasse, leopard wrasse, blue star leopard, fat head anthias, male blue throat trigger, mated pair of flame angels, and a percula clown. Lost a desjardini sailfin during treatment....heartbreaking.

Coral and live rock are living in a 50 g with a 20 g sump and simple Aquatic life 4-bulb T5 fixture while the DT is being treated. Any live rock with minimal coralline algae (base rock) was left behind in the DT during treatment due to space constraints.

 

[Scoobysnack77]

Day 28 update: Disaster strikes! Yesterday I noticed problems with the tang's two tankmates: The Sixline Wrasse was laying on the bottom and refused to eat, and the Maroon Clown has a white slimy substance under both of her pectoral fins. The PB Tang is still looking/acting fine.

So I decided to remove the CP a day early by doing a 50% WC and running carbon. And upon further inspection of the clown I decided to next treat with antibiotics (Maracyn 1 & 2). I figure there's a good chance the clown has a bacterial infection. This morning I found the wrasse dead. The clown & tang are still eating and acting fine, although she still has those white slime marks. A postmortem f/w dip of the wrasse didn't show any Flukes and I didn't see anything visibly wrong on his skin.

I have no idea whether any of this is CP related or not. I just know I'm probably one of the most unlucky SOBs on the planet when it comes to s/w fish.

I was advised that CP should never be used to treat wrasses. It kills them. Research it and you'll see what I'm speaking of

 

[Elliott]

I was advised that CP should never be used to treat wrasses. It kills them. Research it and you'll see what I'm speaking of

really? I have treated every wrasse in my tank with CP, no issues with any of them

 

[Humongous]

I have a six line wrasse in treatment now for over two weeks, still active and fat.

 

[Mishri]

The CP Primer says Some Wrasses are not safe to use with CP. If you can make a list of Wrasses you have safely treated I think it would be very helpful in the future.

 

[Deinonych]

The CP Primer says Some Wrasses are not safe to use with CP. If you can make a list of Wrasses you have safely treated I think it would be very helpful in the future.

+1

That would be very helpful. I have not had good results with Flasher Wrasses, specifically P. mccoskeri, P. cyaneus and P. filamentosus.

 

[tquinlan]

The only explanation (I can think of) is the evolution and growth of a bacteria or other microbe within my tank that can "detoxify" CP by converting it to something else.

Yes.

This has been known for some time in public aquaria. The correct treatment after using CP in a QT tank is to bleach it and start the cycle over. It will eliminate the problem you're describing.

 

[design1stcode2n]

I have a QT set up and will be getting my first fish shortly. I have not read all 50+ pages of this thread was there ever a place determined to source CP other than buying a kilo at a time?

As of right now I only planned on proactively treating with Prazipro and perhaps Paraguard.

 

[Humongous]

I have suspended my use of the NLS ick shield powder. I was not able to make it for the 21 days as recommended due to sudden fish losses. I have lost two adult regal tangs, adult female blue jaw trigger, bicolor angel all in the past 4 days. I'm not telling anyone to stop there treatments, just relaying my experiences. All water parameters are spot on. The dead fish look perfectly healthy.

 

[Halo_003]

I'm currently finishing up QT on 3 Flaming Prawn Gobies with the NLS Ick Shield Powder. No negative effects, dosed once and I'm almost at 21 days (This sunday). After that I'll keep them in QT for a couple weeks to be sure but it cleared up the couple spots I had on one of them, they went away within 48 hours of dosing.

 

[HumbleFish]

The only explanation (I can think of) is the evolution and growth of a bacteria or other microbe within my tank that can "detoxify" CP by converting it to something else.

Could aerobic or anaerobic bacteria be the culprit? I've always treated with CP using a "seeded" sponge for biological filtration (aerobic) ... but I know someone who is having nothing but trouble using CP with "miracle mud" (anaerobic) for filtration.

 

[Dmorty217]

Could aerobic or anaerobic bacteria be the culprit? I've always treated with CP using a "seeded" sponge for biological filtration (aerobic) ... but I know someone who is having nothing but trouble using CP with "miracle mud" (anaerobic) for filtration.

Like the CP doesn't work with miracle mud or could you elaborate on the problems?

 

[HumbleFish]

Like the CP doesn't work with miracle mud or could you elaborate on the problems?

It's actually a LFS I advise, who is using CP to treat all new incoming fish. He's very big on miracle mud; uses it on all of his systems and clients' tanks. So when he setup his QT system, he used miracle mud as the bio-filter (against my better judgement). First batch of fish did fine, but he's had nothing but problems ever since then. He removes all of the CP in-between batches of fish, and redoses using pharmaceutical grade CP. This last batch of fish had what appeared to be ich which later turned out to be velvet, and CP had absolutely no effect on it. Total wipeout.

I have two theories:

1. The miracle mud is absorbing the CP, dropping it below therapeutic levels.

2. The anaerobic bacteria found in the miracle mud is "detoxifying" the CP, as Joules eluded to.

I have used CP pretty extensively for I guess around 5 years now, and have never seen ich on a fish post-treatment. This includes fish that displayed obvious visible physical symptoms in QT. I do not treat with any rock/substrate, and my bio-filter in QT is always the same: an Aquaclear HOB powerfilter, utilizing the foam insert that has been seeded down in my DT sump for a month or more. I realize the foam only houses aerobic bacteria, so I'm wondering is aerobic vs. anaerobic could be the difference?

 

[Dmorty217]

It's actually a LFS I advise, who is using CP to treat all new incoming fish. He's very big on miracle mud; uses it on all of his systems and clients' tanks. So when he setup his QT system, he used miracle mud as the bio-filter (against my better judgement). First batch of fish did fine, but he's had nothing but problems ever since then. He removes all of the CP in-between batches of fish, and redoses using pharmaceutical grade CP. This last batch of fish had what appeared to be ich which later turned out to be velvet, and CP had absolutely no effect on it. Total wipeout.

I have two theories:

1. The miracle mud is absorbing the CP, dropping it below therapeutic levels.

2. The anaerobic bacteria found in the miracle mud is "detoxifying" the CP, as Joules eluded to.

I have used CP pretty extensively for I guess around 5 years now, and have never seen ich on a fish post-treatment. This includes fish that displayed obvious visible physical symptoms in QT. I do not treat with any rock/substrate, and my bio-filter in QT is always the same: an Aquaclear HOB powerfilter, utilizing the foam insert that has been seeded down in my DT sump for a month or more. I realize the foam only houses aerobic bacteria, so I'm wondering is aerobic vs. anaerobic could be the difference?

Very interesting, this is important information to consider when using CP and various forms of bacteria. Never thought this would of made a difference

 

[alprazo]

It may not be the bacteria, but filter media or particulate membranes that some use and others don't

Am J Trop Med Hyg. 1983 Jan;32(1):19-23.
Characteristics of chloroquine binding to glass and plastic.
Geary TG, Akood MA, Jensen JB.
Abstract
Chloroquine, a 4-aminoquinoline derivative that can be radically curative in the therapy of malaria due to Plasmodium falciparum, binds to glass to an extent which can seriously decrease the availability of the drug. Preparations of chloroquine in various solutions showed decreases in concentration of up to 40% in glass containers. Passage of solutions of chloroquine over columns of glass beads or glass wool decreased chloroquine concentrations by up to 70%. Chloroquine was found to bind extensively to cellulose acetate filters, but showed little binding to polycarbonate filters or to plastics of various types, including polycarbonate, polypropylene, and polystyrene. Human serum at concentrations from 5-50% inhibited the binding of chloroquine to glass. Equilibrium dialysis experiments indicated that human serum possesses a large number of binding sites for the drug; it is also possible that factors in the serum compete for drug-binding sites on glass. It is imperative for laboratory workers, especially those in the field, to recognize the significant reductions in chloroquine concentration which occur when the drug is prepared or stored in glass containers. Such reductions can alter the interpretation of chloroquine sensitivity studies and may lead to inaccurate reports of chloroquine resistance.

 

[HumbleFish]

If glass binding had that much of an impact, wouldn't there be nothing but CP failures?

Every fish I've ever treated with CP was done in a glass aquarium. Some with visible trophonts. I haven't seen ich in any of my DTs for over 5 years now, since I started treating with CP. My fish stock include "ich magnets" such as a Powder Blue Tang, Copperband Butterfly, Royal Gramma, etc.

 

[alprazo]

My point was that binding could occur to cellulose foam inserts, glass filter beads, or many other things. Most of my treatments are in glass tanks.