daveonbass
New member
middle of day two. No cloudyness. Tank is still crystal clear. I'll post later any changes in tests.
my rice experiment
- Thread starter kkil4life
- Start date
- Status
I've done some really rough calculations based on the weight concentration of the heavy metal in NSW, using Randy's data:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-11/rhf/index.php
Copper: 380ng/L
Zinc: 590ng/L
Manganese: 165ng/L
Iron: 140ng/L
Using a ng to mg covertor:
http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/units-converter/mass/calculator/nanogram-[ng]-to-milligram-[mg]/
With your 105G water, which is approx. 400L water, at NSW level you shouldn't have more than:
Copper: 0.000380mg/L x 400L = 0.140mg
Zinc: 0.000590mg/L x 400L = 0.236mg
Manganese: 0.000165mg/L x 400L = 0.066mg
Iron: 0.000140mg/L x 400L = 0.056mg
Please correct me if my calculation is wrong Randy
Now one cup (185g) of white rice will give you:
Copper: 0.3mg
Zinc: 2.2mg
Manganese: 42.6mg
Iron: 3.0mg
If you'd ask me I think you're poisoning your tank with heavy metal, it'll just be a matter of time before the signs will start to show.
Good luck.
lol acrotrdco.....I dont know how u compare apples to oranges. u go ahead and and convert ng to mg and all but in the end you leave out the minerals of rice just as is.
185g of rice which is one SERVING not one CUP has 2.2mg of zinc. first its 2.02 not 2.2, big difference right? now ur adding 2.02mg of zinc to how many gallons? if u add it to a 10g nano its 2.02mg and if u add it to a 500g tank its 2.02 as well??
lol
boy ur just saying things to say things. do the math.
let me attempt to do this the right way.
1 cup of rice has 170 phosphorous, when washed breifly, and not even throughly, it gave me 0.1ppm in roughly 300ml water. yes 300 ml of water.
in an approx 10g tank that would translate to about 0.001 ppm, but then ur not going to use that much rice.
now that was with 170mg phosphorous.
with 2.02mg zinc, do I even need to bother with the conversion?
heres the right numbers for you if you want to convert
Zinc (mg) 2.02
Copper (mg) 0.28
Manganese (mg) 3.74
Iron (mg) 1.47
simonskl tested one cup of UNWASHED rice in 1 gal rodi and came up with 1.32ppm, thats about 0.01ppm in 100g system. this is the 170mg of phosphrous.
simonskl retested the water with WASHED rice and he got 0.31ppm in 1 gal. that converts to 0.0031ppm in a 100g system. and that is with the 170mg of phosporous.
DO YOU REALLY WANT ME TO CONVERT 2.02mg zinc?
3.74mg of manganese?
1.47mg of iron?
REALLY??
based on UNWASHED RICE, and real world calculations rather than internet calculater that we dont understand here it is
170mg of phosphrous = 1.32ppm in 1 gal water (btw isnt phosphate 3x phosphrous? or somehting like that)
so based on that
2.02mg of zinc = 0.00202mg in 1 gal = 0.0000202 in 100g
your calculations of NSW showed "Zinc: 0.000590mg/L x 400L = 0.236mg"
so u show 0.236 and real world shows 0.0000202 and u claim ur poising ur tank??
lol
now lets see what the skimmer takes out, and lets see what the carbon takes out, and lets see what 30% monthly water changes take out.
wait, I cant even bother to calculate that cuz its beyond me.....lol
are you poisoning ur tank? NO YOU ARE NOT POISIONING YOUR TANK.
acrotrdco when you make a comment, please provide reasoning for it.
like I said somewhere before in this thread, I DONT SELL REEF RICE, so I dont make a profit of this, this is just an experiment to see what the effects of rice are.
you scared off a few people, who might just read this and rethink their decision to stop the rice, I hope they continue with the rice experiment, but if they want to stop, its their choice. but I'm sure they will hop aboard the train once we prove that the rice is effective.
MODS, I'm sorry about the tone of the above post, but I was just a little taken aback by someone who just walks into the thread and posts up garbage without proper reasoning.
Okay, let's keep the tone of the conversation civil. We've been doing well so far.
Carbon should help with copper and perhaps some other heavy metals. As an experiment, it'd be fairly easy to run a PolyFilter for a while, to see whether it turns blue, indicating copper. Compared to fish food, rice might be rather low in heavy metals:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-04/rhf/feature/index.php
http://web.archive.org/web/20010720071031/http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/data/foods.asp
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2003/feature.htm
So we could compute how much rice is being consumed per day, assume that the metals are being released proportionately, and see how the numbers shape up.
Carbon should help with copper and perhaps some other heavy metals. As an experiment, it'd be fairly easy to run a PolyFilter for a while, to see whether it turns blue, indicating copper. Compared to fish food, rice might be rather low in heavy metals:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-04/rhf/feature/index.php
http://web.archive.org/web/20010720071031/http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/data/foods.asp
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2003/feature.htm
So we could compute how much rice is being consumed per day, assume that the metals are being released proportionately, and see how the numbers shape up.
icycoral
I glue animals to rocks
Wow kk take it easy brother everyone has the right to be wrong and we have the same right to tell them they're wrong but that's not what this is about it about finding better ways to manages n/p levels. @ acro thanks for the warning if that's what it was I believe we are keeping an eye out for those kinds of things
icycoral
I glue animals to rocks
My hazy water lasted like 2-3 days I would have to look at my notes to give a definate answer.
SimonSKL
New member
Just to clarify. Those readings are what was in the solutions of ~100g of unwashed and washed rice. The phosphate probably came from the dust that coated the rice. 1.32ppm is the same as 1.32 mg/L or roughly 5mg of PO4 in that one gal of water. If 100g of raw (uncooked) rice contains 115mg of phosphorus, it can be converted to ~364mg of phosphate. So majority of the phosphate are still within the rice grain. That amount is what we are concerned about when the rice is dissolved or disintegrated and released to the tank.
daveonbass
New member
looks like is should still be a minimal amount of phos...considering that it's not all released at once. As stated it's mostly dissolved over time. Add to that the fact that the bacteria are consuming it anyways and I think it's even less of a worry.
I'm more concerned with acrotrdco's post count. Sorry if I'm rude...but it loks like they joined RC JUST to discredit using rice.
seems strange.
I'm more concerned with acrotrdco's post count. Sorry if I'm rude...but it loks like they joined RC JUST to discredit using rice.
seems strange.
SimonSKL
New member
It's true that amount of phosphate is not all released into the tank all at once. If it were, it would have raised the PO4 level by 0.9ppm in a 105 gal tank. if the rice lasts 30 days, it would have raised the level by 0.03ppm per day in the same tank. Uptake by the bacteria would lower that but I am not sure by how much and how fast. Anyway, the experiments being conducted will provide some real live data. I have to discontinue my experiment partly because of concern over heavy metals and partly because I will be out of the country in a few weeks and will not be able to remedy any major problems if arise.
daveonbass
New member
yeah I can totally see being worried if you are not there to fix any major changes. Just the skimmer amount alone makes me glad I'm here for all of it. I'm so broke this summer I've had to cancel all my vacation plans (including what was to be my first MACNA 
) so I have nothing better to do but stare at my tank. And test test test.
) so I have nothing better to do but stare at my tank. And test test test.Hi every one,
Great thread I've been following you guys from the beginning and after your results I'm going to try your "Rice-reef Method".
I'm from Mexico City and I'm subscribed in a mexican Reef forum (www.i-reef.com) some of the members have started the method a couple days ago and they are sharing their updates and concerns if you guys want to try some spanish you are more than welcome this is the tread: http://i-reef.com/thread-3347-page-1.html
Basically they are reporting the same behavior on the skimmer (a lot of skimming), some hazy water for a couple of days, the corals doesn't seem to bother. Their P an N levels are almost the same (they use to have some N but nothing to high
We have a concern about all the water the skimmer has taken out, you think the density on the water can be compromised? are you guys are measuring this parameter? I think in a large tank its not too much but how about nanos, we are going to keep an eye on this param but just want to know if you have checked this out.
I will keep posting our progress
Regards
Great thread I've been following you guys from the beginning and after your results I'm going to try your "Rice-reef Method".
I'm from Mexico City and I'm subscribed in a mexican Reef forum (www.i-reef.com) some of the members have started the method a couple days ago and they are sharing their updates and concerns if you guys want to try some spanish you are more than welcome this is the tread: http://i-reef.com/thread-3347-page-1.html
Basically they are reporting the same behavior on the skimmer (a lot of skimming), some hazy water for a couple of days, the corals doesn't seem to bother. Their P an N levels are almost the same (they use to have some N but nothing to high
We have a concern about all the water the skimmer has taken out, you think the density on the water can be compromised? are you guys are measuring this parameter? I think in a large tank its not too much but how about nanos, we are going to keep an eye on this param but just want to know if you have checked this out.
I will keep posting our progress
Regards
Update
1. 1/4 to 1/2 cups per 50 to 75 per gallons
2. soak rice at least 24 hours after that rinse rice at least twice.
3. How long will rice last. So far month but stills pending.
4. White rice long or short grain will work fine.
5. You can use reactor or place it in the sump.
6. Beware of your skimmer it go wild my need to adjusted.
7. Do to heavy metal concern maybe active carbon, poly filter, etc may needed to added it not use already.
1. 1/4 to 1/2 cups per 50 to 75 per gallons
2. soak rice at least 24 hours after that rinse rice at least twice.
3. How long will rice last. So far month but stills pending.
4. White rice long or short grain will work fine.
5. You can use reactor or place it in the sump.
6. Beware of your skimmer it go wild my need to adjusted.
7. Do to heavy metal concern maybe active carbon, poly filter, etc may needed to added it not use already.
daveonbass
New member
day two in the bag. No change all params are normal. No effects on any coral or fish or inverts.
NO3 15ppm
PO4 0ppm
NO3 15ppm
PO4 0ppm
Acrotrdco
New member
kkil4life,
I'm not trying to shoot down the possibility of using rice as biopellets alternative, in fact, if you read this thread you'd know this idea has been around for a long time.
http://www.reefcentral.org/forums/showthread.php?p=16648854
In fact there have been studies on using rice and rice husk as carbon source in waste water denitrification, however like most technologies used in waste water processing, it may or may not be able to clone directly into reef aquarium applications.
For example, more than a decade ago there were some dicussions about using ammonia stripping techniques in waste water processing in reef aquariums, but of course it didn't work due to the fact that ammonia stripping requires a very sharp increase in pH to the range of 10.8-11.5, then drive a huge amount of air into the water in reverse direction to strip ammonia from the water column.
In my post I'm just trying to point out that there's a risk involve with dosing too much heavy metal into your reef system that you should be aware of.
I thought my maths is bad LOL.
How did you come up with that? 2.02mg of zinc in 1 gal of water is 2.02mg. 2.02mg of zine in 100 gal of water is STILL 2.02mg.
I'm not calculating PPM (parts-per-million), I'm just using ng/L weight concentration to calculate the weight of heavy metal content in NSW (natural seawater).
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-11/rhf/index.php
Zinc: 590ng/L
Which means, in 1L of NSW there should be about 590ng of zinc (in Zn+ ion form).
590ng is 0.000590mg.
So in your tank, with 105 US gallon of water, or approximately 400 litre of water, you should have no more than
Zinc: 0.000590mg/L x 400L = 0.236mg
Now one cup (185g) of white rice will give you:
Copper: 0.3mg
Zinc: 2.2mg
Manganese: 1.8mg (oops I read the data for Magnesium in the previous post. Sorry)
Iron: 3.0mg
I use the data here:
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5721/2
By quoting different source will always have a margin of error, you said Zinc is 2.02mg, is that a huge difference from 2.2mg?
I just want to point out that there is indeed a risk that minerals in rice or other source of starch do have a chance that'll be leaked into the water, that's the same reason why we've been trying to hard to find food with less phosphrous content, or find GAC that don't leak phosphrous into water, or sticking with GFO and not aluminum based PO4 absorbent.
As if post count matters, if you remember what happened to veterans like Melev with 40,000+ posts
Again I'm not trying discredit using rice as biopellets, I'm just raising my opinion regarding the risks involved with doing so, likewise the same can be said for all DIY projects.
That's why some people are willing to pay more money for lab grad sodium bicarbonate, while others just by Mrs. Wages baking soda.
I also understand that the minerals in rice shouldn't be released all at once into the water column, but there is a chance that rice grains used as pellets in reactors will crumble and decompose faster once the outer layer has been consumed.
That is, the rate of decomposition of rice grains in saltwater is not consistant, for the first few weeks it may slowly decompose/consumed by bacteria, but then all of a sudden the remaining core is rapidly decomposed and releasing too much starch / minerals into the water column.
I'm not trying to shoot down the possibility of using rice as biopellets alternative, in fact, if you read this thread you'd know this idea has been around for a long time.
http://www.reefcentral.org/forums/showthread.php?p=16648854
In fact there have been studies on using rice and rice husk as carbon source in waste water denitrification, however like most technologies used in waste water processing, it may or may not be able to clone directly into reef aquarium applications.
For example, more than a decade ago there were some dicussions about using ammonia stripping techniques in waste water processing in reef aquariums, but of course it didn't work due to the fact that ammonia stripping requires a very sharp increase in pH to the range of 10.8-11.5, then drive a huge amount of air into the water in reverse direction to strip ammonia from the water column.
In my post I'm just trying to point out that there's a risk involve with dosing too much heavy metal into your reef system that you should be aware of.
I thought my maths is bad LOL.
How did you come up with that? 2.02mg of zinc in 1 gal of water is 2.02mg. 2.02mg of zine in 100 gal of water is STILL 2.02mg.
I'm not calculating PPM (parts-per-million), I'm just using ng/L weight concentration to calculate the weight of heavy metal content in NSW (natural seawater).
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-11/rhf/index.php
Zinc: 590ng/L
Which means, in 1L of NSW there should be about 590ng of zinc (in Zn+ ion form).
590ng is 0.000590mg.
So in your tank, with 105 US gallon of water, or approximately 400 litre of water, you should have no more than
Zinc: 0.000590mg/L x 400L = 0.236mg
Now one cup (185g) of white rice will give you:
Copper: 0.3mg
Zinc: 2.2mg
Manganese: 1.8mg (oops I read the data for Magnesium in the previous post. Sorry)
Iron: 3.0mg
I use the data here:
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5721/2
By quoting different source will always have a margin of error, you said Zinc is 2.02mg, is that a huge difference from 2.2mg?
I just want to point out that there is indeed a risk that minerals in rice or other source of starch do have a chance that'll be leaked into the water, that's the same reason why we've been trying to hard to find food with less phosphrous content, or find GAC that don't leak phosphrous into water, or sticking with GFO and not aluminum based PO4 absorbent.
As if post count matters, if you remember what happened to veterans like Melev with 40,000+ posts
Again I'm not trying discredit using rice as biopellets, I'm just raising my opinion regarding the risks involved with doing so, likewise the same can be said for all DIY projects.
That's why some people are willing to pay more money for lab grad sodium bicarbonate, while others just by Mrs. Wages baking soda.
I also understand that the minerals in rice shouldn't be released all at once into the water column, but there is a chance that rice grains used as pellets in reactors will crumble and decompose faster once the outer layer has been consumed.
That is, the rate of decomposition of rice grains in saltwater is not consistant, for the first few weeks it may slowly decompose/consumed by bacteria, but then all of a sudden the remaining core is rapidly decomposed and releasing too much starch / minerals into the water column.
WTyson
New member
The Math
100 US gallons = 378.541178 L
Posted levels (will most likely vary depending on where the rice was grown...IMO)
1 serving = 185g
Zinc: 2.02 mg / 1000 = .00202 g / 185 grams of rice = 1.09189 x 10^-5 g for one gram of rice
for a 378.541178 L tank useing 100g of rice the amount would be
1.09189 x 10^-5 g x 100g / 378.541178 l = 2.8844 x 10 ^-6 g/l or 2884.4 ppm
Molar conversion (1g of rice, for you convenience)
Atomic Weight of Zinc 65.38 g/mol
1.09189 x 10^-5 g/ 65.38 g/mol = 1.67007 x 10 ^-7 moles of Zine per gram
1.67007 x 10 ^-7 mol / 378.541178 L x 100g = 4.411858 x 10^-8 mol/l
Copper: .28 mg = .00028g / 185 grams of rice = 1.51351 x 10^-6 g for one gram of rice
100g (rice) in 378.541178 L = 3.99827 x 10 ^-9 g/l or 3.99827ppm
Molar conversion (1g of rice)
Atomic weight for Copper: 63.546g/mol
1.51351 x 10^-6g/ 63.545g/mol = 2.38179 x 10 ^ - 8 mol / 378.541178L x 100g = 6.292023 x 10 ^ -9 mol/l
Manganese: 3.74mg / 1000 = .00374g / 185 grams of rice = 2.02162 x 10^-5 g for one gram of rice
100g (rice) in 378.541178 l = 5.340555 x 10 ^-6 g/l or 5340.555 ppm
Molar conversion (1g of rice)
Atomic weight of Manganese: 54.938g/mol
2.02162 x 10^-5 g / 54.938g/mol = 3.6798 x 10 ^-7 mol / 378.541178 L x100g = 9.72100319 x 10 ^ -8mol/l
Iron: 1.47 mg/ 1000 = .00147g / 185 grams of rice = 7.94594 x 10 ^ - 6 g for one gram of rice
100g (rice) in 378.541178 l = 2.09909 x 10 ^-6 g/l
or 2099.09 ppm
Molar conversion (1g of rice)
Atomic weight of Iron: 55.845g/mol
7.94594 x 10 ^ - 6g / 55.845g/mol = 1.42298 x10^-7 mol / 378.541178 L x 100g = 3.759115475 x 10 ^-8 mol/l
Natural sea water levels were obtained from here http://ozreef.org/library/tables/natural_sea_water_composition.html
Zinc: 0.0005ppm
Copper: 0.0001ppm
Manganese: 0.0001ppm
Iron: 0.000055ppm
Notes:
It is highly unlikely that these metals will be dumped in via rice degradation very quickly, it is also possible that by using methods such as (skimming, activated carbon, chemipure, purigen, ect, as well as water changes) these levels can be reduced.
please check my math to make sure i did it correctly(been a while since i took chem class and two glasses of scotch are not helping), i also did the molar conversions for those who might want them
100 US gallons = 378.541178 L
Posted levels (will most likely vary depending on where the rice was grown...IMO)
1 serving = 185g
Zinc: 2.02 mg / 1000 = .00202 g / 185 grams of rice = 1.09189 x 10^-5 g for one gram of rice
for a 378.541178 L tank useing 100g of rice the amount would be
1.09189 x 10^-5 g x 100g / 378.541178 l = 2.8844 x 10 ^-6 g/l or 2884.4 ppm
Molar conversion (1g of rice, for you convenience)
Atomic Weight of Zinc 65.38 g/mol
1.09189 x 10^-5 g/ 65.38 g/mol = 1.67007 x 10 ^-7 moles of Zine per gram
1.67007 x 10 ^-7 mol / 378.541178 L x 100g = 4.411858 x 10^-8 mol/l
Copper: .28 mg = .00028g / 185 grams of rice = 1.51351 x 10^-6 g for one gram of rice
100g (rice) in 378.541178 L = 3.99827 x 10 ^-9 g/l or 3.99827ppm
Molar conversion (1g of rice)
Atomic weight for Copper: 63.546g/mol
1.51351 x 10^-6g/ 63.545g/mol = 2.38179 x 10 ^ - 8 mol / 378.541178L x 100g = 6.292023 x 10 ^ -9 mol/l
Manganese: 3.74mg / 1000 = .00374g / 185 grams of rice = 2.02162 x 10^-5 g for one gram of rice
100g (rice) in 378.541178 l = 5.340555 x 10 ^-6 g/l or 5340.555 ppm
Molar conversion (1g of rice)
Atomic weight of Manganese: 54.938g/mol
2.02162 x 10^-5 g / 54.938g/mol = 3.6798 x 10 ^-7 mol / 378.541178 L x100g = 9.72100319 x 10 ^ -8mol/l
Iron: 1.47 mg/ 1000 = .00147g / 185 grams of rice = 7.94594 x 10 ^ - 6 g for one gram of rice
100g (rice) in 378.541178 l = 2.09909 x 10 ^-6 g/l
or 2099.09 ppm
Molar conversion (1g of rice)
Atomic weight of Iron: 55.845g/mol
7.94594 x 10 ^ - 6g / 55.845g/mol = 1.42298 x10^-7 mol / 378.541178 L x 100g = 3.759115475 x 10 ^-8 mol/l
Natural sea water levels were obtained from here http://ozreef.org/library/tables/natural_sea_water_composition.html
Zinc: 0.0005ppm
Copper: 0.0001ppm
Manganese: 0.0001ppm
Iron: 0.000055ppm
Notes:
It is highly unlikely that these metals will be dumped in via rice degradation very quickly, it is also possible that by using methods such as (skimming, activated carbon, chemipure, purigen, ect, as well as water changes) these levels can be reduced.
please check my math to make sure i did it correctly(been a while since i took chem class and two glasses of scotch are not helping), i also did the molar conversions for those who might want them
Last edited:
daveonbass
New member
haha...i actually know melev...ironically from what I've heard of him being banned...hmmm...no comment. But I still count him as a pal.
the strange thing to me is that you seem to be referencing others but have not tried it. If you have then please tell us of your findings. The point that is so out of place is that you state that the rice only lasts for 1 to 2 weeks. So farthat claim has no credit. Everyone who has shown proof of using has shown otherwise. So I appologize, but that statement to me just sounds like mudslinging.
the strange thing to me is that you seem to be referencing others but have not tried it. If you have then please tell us of your findings. The point that is so out of place is that you state that the rice only lasts for 1 to 2 weeks. So farthat claim has no credit. Everyone who has shown proof of using has shown otherwise. So I appologize, but that statement to me just sounds like mudslinging.
Yes, i agred, speed of decomposition is realy very important thing. So i think, understanding this is main goal of this experiment by now.
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