My Tank Thread (Take3) ★Total AUTOMATION★ DIY Doser, Sump, AlgaeScrubber, WaterChnges

[Wally.B]

Perfectly fine numbers but calcium/alk/mag a bit on the high side for my liking. For my personal preference. Still perfectly fine..
Just saying that if they all drop, there is no immediate cause for concern.

They will all drop. The slight rise for ALK/CALC was the combined Dosing with Water Changes. That is over with.
Mag will take ages to Drop, but I don't plan to dose MAG, so that will correct. I'll be doing MAG manually, like before.

 

[reefmutt]

They will all drop. The slight rise for ALK/CALC was the combined Dosing with Water Changes. That is over with.
Mag will take ages to Drop, but I don't plan to dose MAG, so that will correct. I'll be doing MAG manually, like before.

Ok.. but no plans for mag until it drops into the 1200s ok? And even then, just watch it for a while...

 

[Wally.B]

Ok.. but no plans for mag until it drops into the 1200s ok? And even then, just watch it for a while...

Yes Sir! or more properly said Oui Monsieur.

I haven't added Mag Manually for over a year. Remember I bought AF Mag Kit because I couldn't believe my MAG was so high.
There was that short period I used dosed AF 3 Part which had Mag.

The problem is Tropic Marin Pro has a average Spec of:

at Specific Gravity of 1.024

Alk 6.5-7.0 dKH
Ca 420 ppm
MAG 1350 ppm

So at 1.025 it is a tiny big higher on all 3.

I am considering switch to AquaForest Salt when my TM bucket runs out.
Will save me some $'s too.

 

[reefmutt]

‘Shut up, Matt! I got it already!!’ Would probably be more appropriate..

Sure AF seems fine. Or even go to Instant ocean like Ed uses, if I’m not mistaken...

 

[Wally.B]

‘Shut up, Matt! I got it already!!’ Would probably be more appropriate..

Sure AF seems fine. Or even go to Instant ocean like Ed uses, if I’m not mistaken...

No way Matt. You talking/typing is the best thing I have going. Maybe I haven't said it, or said it enough. I really appreciate all the attention and advice you offer me.
My only hope.
People like you, Ed, are my only chance to get over the challenges.
Sensei also cares, when he was pushing me to save the Power Blue Tang with all his fish Red Cross stuff.

But I find it interesting that Instant Ocean is recommended.
I've been using it for years. Decades. I have like 12 empty buckets. Threw some out.

The only reason I stopped using Instant Ocean Reef Crystals is the Alk is really high. 9.5, 10 and I always wanted to have it match to my 7.5 Tank Target, to make dosing easier to calibrate.

Yet many places I visit with the Best Looking Corals on the Planet, use Reef Crystals, and Two Part.

 

[reefmutt]

Well, happy to help a fellow Canuck!
And there’s no reason why you shouldn’t have better success.
And although I dismissed sensei’s methods for your application, I totally respect his approach and dedication to absolute qt protocols.
If you can pull it off with 100% control, then there is no question that it can be effective.
I mean, I’d love to add more fish to my system but every time I get to a shop and see a fish I want, I stop and say what if this guy brings home another outbreak. I’ve been through two.. I don’t want another.
I am also not willing or able to set up what is necessary so I just don’t add any new fish.
Anyways..
As for salt, I’m pretty sure Ed uses regular instant ocean- not reef crystals.....

 

[sensei]

Wally,

I am confident you will soon make sps happy.
You have Ed and Matt on your side, and with their expertise you have right advices.
If you look back, I think you have made good progress in the last 2 months setting the right conditions.
I believe a huge improvement is runing Halides at the right wattage, thus warrantying proper spectrum. You also fixed the Flow now.
the thing is that you will need time to evaluate the changes and stay with the hand out of tank.

I would not change the salt in this moment. one variable at a time is better. It would probably not make a difference if you change it, but if something happens you would always be thinking that it could have been the salt change.

I agree with Matt that you do not need to adjust the new water to meet your alk because you will be doing small Water changes in %. Ed gave me the same advice and it has worked for me for several months. I used to adjust the alk of the new water as you are doing now and it is a pain and extra work.

regards

 

[Wally.B]

Ahh. Instant Ocean Regular not Reef Crystals.

That makes more sense, and that is what I saw the good SPS Tanks used with two part. Nothing else, period.

But as Sensei says, no SALT changes for now, since I need to stop guessing what is causing problems.

I still worry about that Forest Fire Frag. It's comes and goes with Lighting, and doesn't look great.

I don't want to move it (from bottom of tank), but when I moved the Monti up from really low to more light, it helped.
I'll move The Forest Fire, Only if I continue to see decline. Last Lifesaving resort only.

 

[Wally.B]

Water Change Calculator

Ed,

I've been playing with the Water Change Calculator you passed on.
https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/EffectiveWaterChange.php

I may be interpreting the results wrong (amount of Effective Water change).
But from what I see (running a few scenario's), it's not much of a difference when you consider frequency of water changes (same total amount of New Water in a month).

If that is true, the it appears it's all about setup and convenience. (Ie how much of a bucket you have to mix salt, and size of one's tank for appropriate % change), or ( a Auto Water changer like I have).

Keeping Parameters stable with ALK consumption is Possibly a separate thing, that is better controlled by two part dosing.

And the other factor is things like Nitrate reduction, etc. (THE VALUE of water change frequency)
Which Dr. Randy Holmes explains in this article
http:// reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php

No point in worrying about either of the two factors to decide on how often or how much I'll do water changes in future. (My Tank Demands are too simple right now, but good thing is N&P is Not Too Bad).

At this point, I need to RESET things, and figure out my ALK consumption, which I will be doing over the next few days, or weeks.

Then based on my N / P and Dosing Requirements, pick easiest approach.

 

[Big E]

Yes, the percentages aren't that different.......it's a nice tool to have to decide how you want to handle changes on a lot of different levels.

Randy's article is very good to keep as a reference........it has the actual facts & numbers to cut through the often repeated myths.

Salt- I have used IO for 25+ years........it's consistent and has all the elements needed for any type of system.

With an alk around 10 you aren't going to get much of a spike with a water change. We're talking about a few tenths if you run 7.5 on a tank. I run about 8.0 right now.

I never dose Mg as I can keep it stable at 1300-1350 with water changes.

There are plenty of ICP tests on IO and it stands up well against any brand.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2554264&page=5

 

[Wally.B]

PH is bugging me (Not touching Tank) but Family Health CO2 Levels??

Just to be clear, I'm not looking for an excuse to mess with my SPS tank.

But this PH drop mystery is bugging me.
Why did my PH go up to 8.1+ and stay stable when I added the Outside Air Line to both my skimmers? (Months ago)

Then it dropped. Outside Air line is still there. (Running to both tanks)

I got a new PH probe to eliminate measurement error. PH is still low (All tanks, Kitchen, SPS and even Frag Tank).

Is there some kind of CO2 problem in our area, and could this be affecting the air quality in our house? If so, what is the cause?

And back to the aquarium, I know that if I start Dosing at reasonable quantities, the PH should rise. (Just like when you add Kalk).
Everything I read is that Good PH will kick start my SPS growing.

So getting a bit of Soda Lime and testing in FRAG tank or even Kitchen tank (with an Skimmer CO2 Scrubber) would be worth trying.

Is it our air quality? or something else, like RO water (Maybe time for RO membrane replacement, since it's been a while)
MY RO system runs to kitchen for Family drinking & cooking.

Look at this article. CO2 Scrubber is becoming popular. (No need for Outside Air lines)

https:​//www.​reef2rainforest.​com/2017/06/25/ph-stablization​-with-soda-lime/

And as I mentioned AquaForest is working on a CO2 scrubber reactor.
BRS and Two little Fishes are getting on the band Wagon (since they sell Soda Lime and a converted to change GFO Reactor to CO2 SCrubber)

Two Little Fishies Soda Lime Media:
https:​//www.​amazon.​com/Two-Little-Fishies-ATLCDX1​RTG-Absorption/dp/B008S9XIO0/r​ef=sr_1_18?ie=​UTF8&qid=​1499718559&sr=​8-18&keywords=​CDX​
Two little Fishes Reactor Converter:
https://www.amazon.com/Two-Little-Fishies-ATLCDXATRTG-Carbondioxide/dp/B008S9XKCK/ref=pd_sim_199_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=YHTJMNWKCDPJWJESFBFX

https:​//www.​bulkreefsupply.​com/brs-color-changing-medical​-grade-co2-absorbent.html?gclid=​CIns5oDRxdQCFctXDQoddX8IvA​

But again, this interest is about AIR Quality in our House, and possibly our area.

Also if house AIR CO2 is on the rise, then my ATS should be running better (but that's a separate topic). Or is it?

 

[Wally.B]

Here is what I mean about suspicious LOW PH in this house.


BRAND NEW PROBE, FRESH CALIBRATION (SPS Tank)

Makes me wonder since Kitchen Tank has ESV dosing happening.

And both Tanks Dropped PH at the same time.

All 3 Tanks have Skimmers (Kitchen and SPS have Outside Air Line) (Frag tank uses House air)

I JUST DISCONNECTED (OUTSIDE AIR) from Kitchen Tank, to see if PH drops, or stay the same.

 

[Wally.B]

OUTSIDE (Air Line) SOLVED!! ** Ruptured seal **

I figured it out.

I put finger over hose running to outside, and saw no Changes to Either Skimmer (ie no vacuum).

Then I put a cup of water at end of Kitchen Tank Skimmer Air line, and no draw from Other Skimmer (with OUTSIDE line SEALED)

I found this.

The Rubber Seal to SPS tank ruptured, so no outside air being taken in.

And since both Skimmers are T-Connection to Outside Air, Kitchen Tank was also drawing inside air.

Seal Fixed. Finger Test show both skimmers going nuts.

I bet PH will rise in both tanks over next 24hours, and trend to stability in 3 days.

This is really good News since it should help SPS tank (Without any chemical changes), Just PH.

 

[sensei]

Yes, the percentages aren't that different.......it's a nice tool to have to decide how you want to handle changes on a lot of different levels.

Randy's article is very good to keep as a reference........it has the actual facts & numbers to cut through the often repeated myths.

Salt- I have used IO for 25+ years........it's consistent and has all the elements needed for any type of system.

With an alk around 10 you aren't going to get much of a spike with a water change. We're talking about a few tenths if you run 7.5 on a tank. I run about 8.0 right now.

I never dose Mg as I can keep it stable at 1300-1350 with water changes.

There are plenty of ICP tests on IO and it stands up well against any brand.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2554264&page=5

Ed,
In your experience how much of a spike in alk should not cause any problems?? 0.2 or 0.3 upward?
Or ir should be greater than that to create problems??

thanks

 

[Wally.B]

Ed,
In your experience how much of a spike in alk should not cause any problems?? 0.2 or 0.3 upward?
Or ir should be greater than that to create problems??

thanks

Sensei,
I will let ED answer, but I bet he will say it's Three factors:

1) ALK rise amount
2) From What Level (From 7.0, or from 8.5 a 0.2 Alk rise is different % change [2.85% VS 2.3%] )
3) Time (How quick is the Rise or drop). Rise is the bad one.

But since you say SPIKE, I assume you mean quick, and you probably mean from ALK=7.5
Less than 12-24 hours. Or instantly after a Bad Dose/Water Change.

And obviously the question is only about SPS.
I say this since LONG TIME AGO my A/B solution Doser Timer got stuck. One timer for both parts.
1/3-1/2 Gallon of A/B went into my SOFTIE TANK all at once.
I can't imagine what ALK spike was within one hour. Not sure if in that case A cancelled B due to precipitation.
Nothing got hurt. Cloudy as hell.

Therefore I do have an additional Question to ED or anyone, on top of your question.
If Ed's tank has ALK=8.0, but he buys a SPS Frag or Colony from a Supplier having Alk =7.1. Does ED drip the coral like a you drip a fish to avoid a 0.9 Alk Spike Instantly? (A spike is a spike)

 

[Wally.B]

PH On SOLID ROCKET FUEL PACK (not Good, but possibly GREAT)

I know that PH should always rise Slowly, but I have no way to throttle the Fresh Airline (mixing Fresh Air with House Air).

However, this could be a Game Changer since it could explain a lot.

That PROBE Was good all along, and therefore those Crazy PH swings were happening.
PH has been very low for a while. Months.
But I blamed it on expired probe and had no time to focus with all the SPS's bleaching, one after the other.
Add summer break with Kids, Vacations, etc. (And the search for another reason)

Since I never noticed the rupture, that Skimmer Tube was at water surface, and I trusted that it was sealed.
It's was not sealed. Ruptured probably months ago, so it sputtered in the water and I have no idea what effect that had.

If PH stabilizes, and sets a nice levels, whatever happens is a better future.

THIS COULD HAVE BEEN MY GRIEF over the last few months.

Even with Good/Stable Water Parameters (Alk,Calc,N,P,Temp,Trace Elements), but a WILD (Ph), how long could any new Frag last.

We'll see when the ROCKET pack burns out, what PH becomes.

THIS Sounds "Too Good To be True", but "I deserve a break, if so"

 

[Wally.B]

PH Flattens out (Too soon to make any Conclusions)

PH peaked at 7.86 then flattened out.

If it flattens and doesn't drop/ swing much that will be ok for now. Still an improvement.

We'll see over next few days.

Today's ALK check. No change. (without any dosing)

 

[Big E]

Ed,
In your experience how much of a spike in alk should not cause any problems?? 0.2 or 0.3 upward?
Or ir should be greater than that to create problems??

thanks

I've never experienced instant spike issues, but I would would think .3 is a reasonable limit. When I was hand dosing I'd dump 25mls of alk solution in a tank all at once in a total volume of 90 gallons. It was never an issue for the 4 years I dosed like that.....I'm not sure what type of spike that would produce but I'm guessing it was more than any water change spike of a few tenths.

My Sps have mainly been run in the 8.0-8.5 range and I've never had pastel corals or ULNS which is when I would be more concerned about running a lower alk level. I always wanted to avoid a low drop versus high levels, so it's why I wanted that buffer area.

It makes sense to keep the spike or change tight. I understand if some people are anal about this, but I never really worried about it when I'm doing a 10% water change.


Wally-

Therefore I do have an additional Question to ED or anyone, on top of your question.
If Ed's tank has ALK=8.0, but he buys a SPS Frag or Colony from a Supplier having Alk =7.1. Does ED drip the coral like a you drip a fish to avoid a 0.9 Alk Spike Instantly? (A spike is a spike)

I don't acclimate corals except for temperature (if the bag is cold). They are put in a dip solution of my tank water, rinsed, and put in the tank.
I've been doing it this way for at least 15 years.

I want oxygenation and flow around the coral asap.

With fish I only concern myself with temp and specific gravity.

 

[Wally.B]

It makes sense to keep the spike or change tight. I understand if some people are anal about this, but I never really worried about it when I'm doing a 10% water change.

Thanks Ed.

I'm done with the numbers chasing game. (or witch hunts since the Witch could be me and my hands)

With Fresh Air fixed, and PH up to reasonable level, and all other Parameters in check, my goal going forward is a Period of Stability.

Best to take approach as with Kitchen tank. Watch corals not numbers. I test tank Water once every 1-2 months.

Sure I will watch ALK since I need to figure out micro dosing amounts, but that should be it.

I just need to be patient, and patient means months, not days or weeks (Even with Coral Watching).

I really have no other choice anymore.

 

[sensei]

I've never experienced instant spike issues, but I would would think .3 is a reasonable limit. When I was hand dosing I'd dump 25mls of alk solution in a tank all at once in a total volume of 90 gallons. It was never an issue for the 4 years I dosed like that.....I'm not sure what type of spike that would produce but I'm guessing it was more than any water change spike of a few tenths.

My Sps have mainly been run in the 8.0-8.5 range and I've never had pastel corals or ULNS which is when I would be more concerned about running a lower alk level. I always wanted to avoid a low drop versus high levels, so it's why I wanted that buffer area.

It makes sense to keep the spike or change tight. I understand if some people are anal about this, but I never really worried about it when I'm doing a 10% water change.

Thank you Ed,

one more question about alk:
I thought that going bellow 7.0 in alk was a problem for corals, so I asked in a thread about that:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2649477

I was surpriced that DiscusHeckel said that his acropora seem to be happier at alk bellow 7. His target is 6.5 -6.8 .
he said that occasionally his alk has gone bellow 6 and nothing happened to his acros. how can this be?
I am not sure if he is ULNS
Why do you need very low levels of alk in ULNS??

thanks a lot