N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)

[Scej12]

thanks for the reply. his ph is above 8 and alk is 8-9. what should alk be kept at???? all other params are fine as well

Alk was always prescribed to be between 8-12. Since the introduction of zeovit and all the other ultra low nutrient strategies, the advice then became to keep the alk no higher than 9, otherwise the sps will exhibit burnt tips. If your friend is loosing both fish and corals perhaps alk is not the primary problem. How's your water O2 levels? Can you provide all of the other parameters including salinity. Are fish gasping for air? Are they eating at all? Not enough info available to get a good grasp on the situation as yet. Perhaps some photos of the system if possible might help.

Sheldon

 

[Oldude]

looking for some answers please

looking for some answers please

I just started using pellets in my reef 3 weeks ago. I started with 550 ml for 2weeks and then added another 550 ml 1 week ago. My tank is 400 gal and system is about 700 gal so I believe I'm starting pretty light for the water volume. Anyway I have a large hammer coral that I've had for 6 years which has survived all sorts of issues over the years but this weekend it literally puked out all the polyps leaving pretty much just a bare skeleton. The only thing other than bumping up a lower than normal magnesium level that I've changed in my reef is adding the bio-pellets. I've also had a couple of heads of frogspawns and trumpet corals loose some polyp heads lately as well. Could the pellets have caused this reaction?

 

[Scej12]

I just started using pellets in my reef 3 weeks ago. I started with 550 ml for 2weeks and then added another 550 ml 1 week ago. My tank is 400 gal and system is about 700 gal so I believe I'm starting pretty light for the water volume. Anyway I have a large hammer coral that I've had for 6 years which has survived all sorts of issues over the years but this weekend it literally puked out all the polyps leaving pretty much just a bare skeleton. The only thing other than bumping up a lower than normal magnesium level that I've changed in my reef is adding the bio-pellets. I've also had a couple of heads of frogspawns and trumpet corals loose some polyp heads lately as well. Could the pellets have caused this reaction?

I haven't read about any polyp bailing so far as a result of these pellets, however it could be that the pellets triggered other changes in your system as well. Did any of your parameters change after using the pellets. I'm also trying them on a similar sized system as yours. I worked up from about 1L and now about 4 mos later I'm at about 3L. I actually began adding lps and montiporas as my introductory corals and lost a couple of specimens in the beginning. However in my case my calcium was way too high 540, and my pH was rather low 7.8 or so. I attributed these params to the polyp ejections that I'd experienced. In my particular case I don't think it was a direct result of the polyps as my tank was about 6 years old and under filtered for that entire time. This was the result of the low pH in my opinion, and I think this was the cause of my losses. I do think it is entirely possible that the pellets could be influencing some of the parameters as I don't think the bailouts would be due to bacteria blooms which is the initial reaction from the pellets, unless of course the bacterial blooms have some sort of ancillary effect - respire O2 and produce CO2, therefore affecting the pH balance.

Let's see your parameters so that we might be able to rule out a few more possibilities.

Sheldon

 

[Scej12]

Also check to see how much the pH drops at night. If bacteria are contributing enough CO2, perhaps they could be compounding the diurnal swings to some extent, thereby stressing the lps enough to cause the bailout.

SJ

 

[Oldude]

My parameters are as follows:
ca-420
dkh-8
mag-1320
K- 390
sg-1.026
ph- 8.2 - 8.5 (swings up in the photoperiod)

The crazy thing is I've had these LPS corals for many years and they have been to hell & back without a problem. Why the bailout now?

 

[bertoni]

How much magnesium (in terms of ppm) was added in one shot?

 

[Scej12]

My parameters are as follows:
ca-420
dkh-8
mag-1320
K- 390
sg-1.026
ph- 8.2 - 8.5 (swings up in the photoperiod)

The crazy thing is I've had these LPS corals for many years and they have been to hell & back without a problem. Why the bailout now?

Ok - so after reading your response, I had to consult one of my resident experts to pick his brain a little. Our discussion touched on the following:

- some of the reported causes for lps to bail polyps could be low strontium; molybdinum; calcium; or magnesium;
- there is also a possibility that the efficient bacteria could be stripping other trace elements - his example was that some bacteria can actually calcify (I.e. Those crusty caked up gravel sandbed patches you sometimes find. I know your calc level is fine, but the example is just to show that there are a vast variety of bacteria; capable of efficiently nourishing themselves with nutrients/elements readily available. This brings me to the last thought we deliberated;
- based on the example of the zeovit system, the aparent strategy can be summed up (at least anecdotally) as: using bacteria cultured in zeolytes to strip away most, if not all of the foundational fertilizing nutrients; NO3/PO4 primarily, but likely a few other elements as well. It is the common principle of probably all 'bacteria driven systems'. However my feeling is that what makes the zeo system so successful albeit labour-intensive, is that whole supplemental regiment that can be tailored to some degree to each user's specific scenario. However, the key point is that some provisions are made to replace the removed undesireables with desireable supplements. In a nutshell it could be that if/when the pelletsactually do acheive their purpose of ULNS, some corals (LPS in particular) can in fact starve to death if not purposefully fed.

LPS get a lot of their nourishment from heterotrphically grabbing food. My friend also suggested that sometimes LPS can display a greater density of zooxanthelae by exhibiting darker/browner colour. This could in fact be a measure of attempted compensation for lack of other grabbable food; so they switch to more autotrophic nourishment (through photosynthesis).

If we get enough reports of corals suffering after the bp system achieves ULNS conditions, that could be an indication that the purported application of bacterioplankton as an adequate subsitute for all of the known (and unknown) nutrients being processed out by them; is in fact not enough as a stand-alone heterotrophic food source. Put another way, could it be possible that the bacteria generated could be out-competing some of our inverts...?

In the very least, I think it might be worth the try to adopt a pseudo-zeo philosophy in that if we employ a super-cleaning strategy; we need to ensure that we do not leave behind a barron; or at least mono-cultured microscape.

Sheldon

 

[Scej12]

Sorry Duplicate

 

[thebanker]

To test if this design improves the tumbling of BP, I made something similar and use it in my NextReef MR1 reactor.

This is MR1 with no modification. Despite good movement in the front, there is very little movement in the back as water seems to flow in the route with least resistance.

<embed width="600" height="361" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowFullscreen="true" allowNetworking="all" wmode="transparent" src="http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf" flashvars="file=http%3A%2F%2Fvid667.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv38%2FSimonSKL%2F002-18.mp4">

This is with the DIY concave deflector replacing the original diffuser plate:
<embed width="600" height="361" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowFullscreen="true" allowNetworking="all" wmode="transparent" src="http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf" flashvars="file=http%3A%2F%2Fvid667.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv38%2FSimonSKL%2F004-12.mp4">

I think there is significant improvement to the movement of the BPs within the whole reactor with the modification.

You can read about my DIY concave deflector in this post:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18045207#post18045207

I checked out your thread. That is absolutely money! What a great solution for anyone running pellets w/ a traditional diffuser plate!

 

[tmz]

My parameters are as follows:
ca-420
dkh-8
mag-1320
K- 390
sg-1.026
ph- 8.2 - 8.5 (swings up in the photoperiod)

The crazy thing is I've had these LPS corals for many years and they have been to hell & back without a problem. Why the bailout now?

I suspect the caulastrea and euphylia were acustomed to higher nitrate and phosphate and when it was quickly cut back they could not adjust and bailed out . Surface waters hold ,than .2ppm Nitrate with PO4 only .005ppm but deeper waters and lagooons can have 10x that or more. I had similar issues with these types of corals as nutrients dropped with carbon dosing. When I moved them to a higher nutrient tank they did better. Tracking your PO4 and NO3 before and during dosing and moving them down slowly is prudent. Generally, ime, euphylia and caulastrea will do ok with the lower nutrient levels( in my case PO4 around .04ppm and NO3 <1ppm ) but do not grow much and do better with NO3 at 5 to 20ppm and PO4 around .1ppm.

Alternatively, the polymers in the pellets may have broken down to monomers and these sugars could fuel pathogenic bacterial activity via oxygen depletion or upsetting the symbiont bactria of cetaina corals.

 

[liver]

Can you place the pellets in a zeovit reactor or is that too much flow?

 

[Scej12]

never used a zeo reactor before but I would say once you can moderate the flow to get some decent fluidized action, then why not...?

 

[SaltyNovice]

I posted a few days ago that I would be starting some pellets when I got them delievered. I started the EcoBak pellets on Saturday at 1:00pm (12-11-10). This afternoon(12-15-10) I came home to a tank with a slight haze in the water and my skimmer producing a whole lot more foam than I've ever seen it produce. This is really quicker than I expected. The production of foam is also very smelly compared to what it has been in the past. I'm running about 500mL in a 150 TLF reactor powered by a Maxijet 1200. The reason for starting the pellets is my nitrates have been as high as 160 according to the API tests and last Saturday was running at about 100+ if I'm reading the color correctly. My system has been running for about 5 years and nitrates have always been a problem for me. My system is a 120 with a 65 sump/fuge. I'm quessing that I have about 150gal of water. I'll post the nitrate reading sometime this weekend when I have time to test the water. Just posting to add my part to the on going testing of the pellets. :fish2: I've already posted this same message in the WM pellet's thread.

 

[NyReefNoob]

anyone notice a drop in ph ? nothing else has changed in my system other then using the bio-pellets now and on month two with them but having a hard time maintaining ph

 

[poolkeeper1]

PH Drop

PH Drop

anyone notice a drop in ph ? nothing else has changed in my system other then using the bio-pellets now and on month two with them but having a hard time maintaining ph

Why do you think that your low PH is related to the pellets? Not saying it's not possible but what makes you think it's related to them?
Bill:fish1::fish1:

 

[bertoni]

If the drop is related to the pellets, more aeration in the system should fix it, but it could just be the normal indoor air problems.

 

[goochesfish]

bdbyace08, so did the white slime form a film on the sandbed and some corals? Could the bacteria makes the LPS to recess? i am having issue with my LPS recessing while my sps are growing like crazy and colored up. maybe i dont have enough flow too. check my parameter everyday and everything in perfect range: ph 8.3, cal 440, alk 8 and mag is around 1300. the soft corals in my tank are doing good. i just put back online GFO for now (suspect of higher phosphate level). i do run Rox carbon from BRS too.

My LPS is receding too (I have a Christmas favia and a favite. There is white slime on the edges. I never attributed this to the NP pellets. SPS growing well. I also have had more zooanthid polyps close up. is this all related? I change carbon every 2 weeks.

 

[NyReefNoob]

well i dose kalk and never had ph problems, my ph stayed 8.2-8.4 other then adding the bio-pellets, and taking gfo off line nothing has changed, tank is next to a window with window partially opened, with nice breeze coming in. ph is dropping to 7.8 and on a high 8.1 during day, i do run fuge light opposite of tank light. plenty of top water flow and drain sit's a 1/4 above sump water level so getting oxygen there also.
cal is 420, alk 10 mag 1400

 

[daveonbass]

as an update...my N and P are still undetectable. Also, my banggai pair has finally successfully had fry. I can not directly attribute this to the lower/cleaner levels of N and P, but they never held the eggs for more than a week before the pellets started working.

now I have 13 healthy baby banggai fish that also seem to be benifiting from the water quality.

as well as that, I am seeing very nice coloration of frags that I received from friends tanks, brighter than what they experience.

and finally the bioload being higher has not effected the N and P levels since the pellets started working, and that is with no further dosing of anything, just the pellets and a skimmer. So no more complaints from me, and since all params check out I can only assume that the pellets are a benefit in the tank more than they are and problem to the livestock.

 

[bdare]

I ran bio pellets on my 70 mixed reef for about 1 year. I never saw any benefit. All I saw was, my cheato die, a constant film on my glass, and a cyano outbreak which I never had before.

I took them off my tank about 2 weeks ago and I'm SUPER happy with the results. They cyano is going away and I haven't had to clean my glass in over a week.

Good riddance!