Natural enemy to those liitle worms in the sand bed that have those nasty tentacles!

I love mine ,great cleaners! I suspect the bright colors are a sign to say they taste bad because I have never seen anything in my tank even attept to eat them.
This one crawled out of the sand after awater change.

DSCF3490.jpg


click pic for video

 
I love mine ,great cleaners! I suspect the bright colors are a sign to say they taste bad because I have never seen anything in my tank even attept to eat them.
This one crawled out of the sand after awater change.

Now that worm is cool enough to keep as a pet. The video is great. Looks like Medusa.
 
In my first tank I had epic levels of spaghetti worms and I suspect it was because I had inferior flow and not a great skimmer. It's also possible that the rock I bought came with a large population (?).

In my current tank I have massive flow and a great skimmer. It's also possible that the rocks I put into this tank didn't come with any spaghetti worms. What I can tell you is that I have none in the current tank. I siphoned out a lot of them from my first tank because I think they are ugly as heck.
 
I am not aware of anybody advocating the use of "worms" as a NNR methodology.

You made the above statement in response to me saying this.

IMHO this is where some of the well known authors in this hobby have misled the reader.

I quoted Opcn in that post saying this.

Those food particles break down eventually, you just need to decide if you want a small percentage of the N&P they contain entering the water as wormpoop or if you want 100% of it entering the water.

Clearly, Opcn believes that worms reduce N and P. As do many other people in this hobby. Even you, yourself, make statements like

Moreover, they do eat food particles that don't (or won't) make it the the filter

Which clearly suggest you believe there is some benefit to worms eating solid particles.

I would not have made the statements I did if Opcn wouldn't have made the statement clearly suggesting that worms are a method of NNR.
 
Which clearly suggest you believe there is some benefit to worms eating solid particles.

Yes, it keeps them alive and the worms being alive is beneficial to the ecosystem we are trying to maintain. When they do their part, they help other mechanisms in the system. Some of those mechanisms are the NNR functions of the sandbed.

You are doing a lot of context wrangling to point out that worms are a living creature that eat, breathe and poop and are therefore part of the bio-load, not a magical NNR bullet. Sadly, nobody has said they were (a magic NNR bullet). The point is that they are beneficial to the systems we try to keep, not a nuisance that needs to be eradicated.

The building has 1,000 tenants that poop a lot and because the building is older, it has a septic system. The building has a maintenance man and part of his job is to maintain the septic system. The maintenance man is an add environmental sort that hates to see food go to waste and as such prefers to soft through the building's garbage for his meals before it is set out on the curb. The tenants don't mind as he is clean, kind and pretty much stays out of site. He lives in the basement and thus poops in the basement bathroom, adding to the load (no pun) on the septic system. Without the maintenance man, the septic system malfunctions and costs more to maintain with outside help. Is the maintenance man a welcome or unwelcome addition to the building? Does his benefit to the septic system outweigh his impact?
 
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The point is that they are beneficial to the systems we try to keep, not a nuisance that needs to be eradicated.

Unless you think they look like crap and just don't want them. In which case, their best predator is the end of a siphon tube.
 
IMHO this is where some of the well known authors in this hobby have misled the reader. It is true that the N and P concentration of a solid particle will be reduced as it passes through the gut of a worm. This does not equate to a reduction of free N and P for a stable and mature system, with a stable population of worms. It's been mentioned several times in this thread that the population of worms can be controlled, at least in part, with the amount of food available to them. In a mature and stable system, the amount of food available to worms will be relatively stable. This means the population will be relatively stable. As one worm is taking up N and P, another is dieing and releasing its stored N and P back into the environment. In order to get a reduction of N and P with worms, you would need a constantly growing population of worms. This is simply impossible. It is irrelevant what one individule worm is doing. We need to look at what the entire population is doing.

That is a good point, but I think a full reef tank ecosystem eventually trickles some of that good up to our fish and corals which are growing. Worms are broadcasting spawn into the water column, and being eaten by fish, and those that die are eaten by various pods which our fish and corals eat. If you have worms you can occasionally pull them out with a water change or some such but if you haven't you cannot.
 
IMHO this is where some of the well known authors in this hobby have misled the reader. It is true that the N and P concentration of a solid particle will be reduced as it passes through the gut of a worm. This does not equate to a reduction of free N and P for a stable and mature system, with a stable population of worms. It's been mentioned several times in this thread that the population of worms can be controlled, at least in part, with the amount of food available to them. In a mature and stable system, the amount of food available to worms will be relatively stable. This means the population will be relatively stable. As one worm is taking up N and P, another is dieing and releasing its stored N and P back into the environment. In order to get a reduction of N and P with worms, you would need a constantly growing population of worms. This is simply impossible. It is irrelevant what one individule worm is doing. We need to look at what the entire population is doing.

Since this seems to be a topic of some confusion or contention, I thought I might step in and add some clarification as this is my area of expertise. Although it is true that consumption of organics will obviously reduce their concentrations by locking it up in biomass, that is not at all what is meant when it's said that the presence of worms reduces levels of nitrate in the tank. Instead, what really matters is the burrowing and engineering of the sediment by the worms (and spaghetti worms are considered one of the most important groups that does this), a process known as bioturbation. What this does is move or advect organic material deeper into the sediment, where it may be consumed via coupled nitrification/denitrifiation or just plain old denitrification. What makes this process so critical is that this movement is much faster than diffusion alone, so DNF can take place at much much faster rates. Indeed, it's possible that the eventual decline of sandbed diversity is one of the contributing factors to old tank syndrome (though the data still need to be generated). So, critters like these terrebelids (probably misspelled) are vital for reducing nitrate and increasing system function, not through what they do directly, but what they do to the sandbed.

Now, as far as phosphate, the way they affect phosphate is much more roundabout. Phosphate is very sensitive to the redox conditions in the sediment, and bioturbation increases the speed of cycling between soluble and insoluble forms (soluble ones are removed by filtration and animal growth). P is also removed readily by photosynthetic inverts, and IME in a system with a properly functioning sandbed and healthy coral growth, there aren't detectable levels of either.

Hope that clears this up a little...it doesn't make much sense to assert that these worms are good without explaining why exactly that's so!
 
. Although it is true that consumption of organics will obviously reduce their concentrations by locking it up in biomass,

This statement is misleading. It's statements like this that lead hobbyists to believe that worms are reducing their nitrate and phosphate level by locking them up in biomass. That is simply false. It is irrelevant if one worm is locking up these nutrients in biomass, when the worm next to it is decomposing and releasing all its stored nutrients back into the environment. Like I said. It is the population that matters. You will not get a reduction of nitrate and phosphate with a stable population of worms.


that is not at all what is meant when it's said that the presence of worms reduces levels of nitrate in the tank. Instead, what really matters is the burrowing and engineering of the sediment by the worms (and spaghetti worms are considered one of the most important groups that does this), a process known as bioturbation. What this does is move or advect organic material deeper into the sediment, where it may be consumed via coupled nitrification/denitrifiation or just plain old denitrification. What makes this process so critical is that this movement is much faster than diffusion alone, so DNF can take place at much much faster rates.

How is any of this beneficial to a reef tank? Allowing organic matter to accumulate in a sand bed, then having worms move it, along with oxygen, deeper into the sand bed, simply increases the area, and speed of decomposition. Decomposition is not beneficial to a reef tank. Solid particles of organic matter are loaded with harmful nutrients. If we remove these particles, before they decompose, the nutrients they contain can not degrade our water quality. The nutrients contained in a solid particle can only degrade our water quality, after that particle has decomposed, or as it decomposes. Worms, pods, and all the other little magic critters simply aid in the decomposition process. They are part of the problem. Not the solution.

Indeed, it's possible that the eventual decline of sandbed diversity is one of the contributing factors to old tank syndrome (though the data still need to be generated).

How is it even possible? "Biodiversity" is such a cool sounding term, that everyone thinks we must have it. Until you stop and think about what it really means. When we stock a tank, we introduce a huge diversity of organisms from many different environments around the globe. In time, some of these organisms will die off while other prosper. Those that are well suited to the conditions of our system, prosper. Those that are not, don't. We don't need a diversity of organisms. We need organisms that are well suited to our system. Nature takes care of this for us. Adding diversity, for diversities sake, simply causes more organisms to die, rot, and degrade our water quality.

IMHO, the cause of OTS is pretty obvious. It's the accumulation of rotting organic matter. I've never seen, or heard of, a clean tank suffering OTS. I've only seen it in tanks that have been neglected. The method of maintaining the typical "DSB" requires that you neglect the tank. Which is why OTS is such a common problem with DSB systems. This is just my opinion though.



Now, as far as phosphate, the way they affect phosphate is much more roundabout. Phosphate is very sensitive to the redox conditions in the sediment, and bioturbation increases the speed of cycling between soluble and insoluble forms (soluble ones are removed by filtration and animal growth). P is also removed readily by photosynthetic inverts, and IME in a system with a properly functioning sandbed and healthy coral growth, there aren't detectable levels of either.

So in other words, a sand bed does absolutely nothing to reduce phosphate.

In fact it is a phosphate factory on the bottom of the tank. It takes harmless solid particles containing phosphate, breaks them down, and releases that phosphate back into the system where it can fuel algae growth, and cause health, and growth problems for stony corals.


Hope that clears this up a little...it doesn't make much sense to assert that these worms are good without explaining why exactly that's so!

I still don't see the benefit.
 
The building has 1,000 tenants that poop a lot and because the building is older, it has a septic system. The building has a maintenance man and part of his job is to maintain the septic system. The maintenance man is an add environmental sort that hates to see food go to waste and as such prefers to soft through the building's garbage for his meals before it is set out on the curb. The tenants don't mind as he is clean, kind and pretty much stays out of site. He lives in the basement and thus poops in the basement bathroom, adding to the load (no pun) on the septic system. Without the maintenance man, the septic system malfunctions and costs more to maintain with outside help. Is the maintenance man a welcome or unwelcome addition to the building? Does his benefit to the septic system outweigh his impact?

If the analogy worked, I'd agree with you. There's a huge problem though. On every drain, in the building, that leads to the septic tank, there's a trap. This trap is a physical barrier between the people living in the building and their waste in the septic tank. Without this barrier, the tenants would become ill, and long enough exposure would cause death. The building simply would not be livable without that physical barrier between the life in the building and the waste it produces. There is no such barrier in a DSB tank. The animals are forced to live in their own filth. Now, if there was a way to move all the waste from the tank, to a different tank (like is done in a building and septic tank) and installed a barrier between the tanks, and trained the worms to maintain that system, your analogy would work.

If you tried to keep a higher life form, like a dog, in an environment like a DSB system, you would probably go to jail for animal cruelty. The only reason we don't in this hobby, is that fish and coral are not governed by the same laws as dogs and other higher life forms. Think about it. If you put a dog in a large cage out in the yard. Then covered the bottom with sand, or soil, and added a bunch of earth worms, and insects, you would basically have a DSB system. Now don't remove the dogs waste from the sand. Leave it for the worms and insects. When the cops and the humane society show up at your door, because your neighbor complained, just tell them that everything is okay. You have worms and insect cleaning up after the dog, so you don't have to. Something tells me that won't get you very far. We wouldn't keep any other pet under such conditions. Birds, snakes, cats, dogs......... we must remove their waste, especially from the bottom of their container. It wouldn't matter how many worms, or bugs we added to the bottom. It is no different for the pets we keep in this hobby. We must clean up after them. Worms and pods do not make their waste disappear.
 
Fascinating information. I have a question though, kinda off topic, but kinda on. If that thing is a spaghetti worm, what are the little white worms that make the tubes with bits of sand and stuff?
 
Elagance Coral:

Again (pattern?), the analogy was simple (as most analogies are) and meant to simply convey an idea in an understandable way. Any analogy can be destroyed by adding complexity and meaning where it was not mean to be. You are missing the basic point and instead keep getting stuck on semantics.

Your opinions (which you are entitled to and certainly welcome to share) are simply not supported by the facts or by those who are studied in the subject at hand. While you may feel that the "experts" are misleading the whole of the hobby, you have done nothing to discredit their statements other than kindly offer your opinion.

That said, I am going to bow out of the converstation, as the point you are attempting to argue really has little to do with the what I said and I see little chance of any further developments to change anyones opinion one way or the other.

The bottom line is that the worms that reside in our systems appear to be more beneficial than they are detrimental, at least that is the opinion held by those who have studied the subject. If you feel they are a burden on the system and wish to prove as much, I am sure there are methods that you could employ to test your hypothesis and vindicate your opinion by publishing verifiable results. In fact, it happens often in this hobby due to the rather small number of people willing to take on verifiable research :)
 
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Elegance, the worms can only get at the particles that settle in the cracks and crevices and on the sandbed in the first place. If you are taking the steps to stop that from happening than the worms aren't going to interfere with those steps. Your idea of keeping a dog on a sand bed is a little odd because terrestrial worms don't like to live in sand, but you can easily keep a dog on a 20'X20' patch of dirt with out ever cleaning up after it with out much of a problem, literally millions of people do that with out getting ticketed. Worms aren't the whole solution to the waste problem, but they do keep the ball rolling. My background is in biology (not marine bio) and a very well established fact is that a diverse ecosystem can have more biomass in the same place than a non-diverse ecosystem. If you took two identical tanks and stocked them with the same livestock and aquascaping and fed them the same amount of food and ran the same filtration and added worms to one system and not to the other then the system with the worms would over time have more living biomass in the tank and less free nitrate and less free phosphate. The skimmer (assuming you had one) and any filterfloss you took out would all be pulling out more living biomass in the worm tank, but there would be more left in the tank to be consumed by tank residents too, you would probably see more plankton consumption and more livestock growth (by just a tiny fraction) in the tank with more standing biomass.

In short I'm not advocating worms in stead of other methods for reducing nutrients in the tank, I'm advocating worms in addition to those methods used to reduce nutrient loads in the tank. I think it is technically feasible to have a tank with no worms or pods or hermits or snails or shrimp or CUC of any sort in it, but I doubt strongly that that tank would have lower nutrient levels as a result.

Of course this all goes out the window if you start to feed your CUC.
 
(First of all I'm sincerely glad you asked these questions cause this is the central topic of my PhD research I'm defending on Monday and this is sooooo much help finishing the report writeup)

This statement is misleading. It's statements like this that lead hobbyists to believe that worms are reducing their nitrate and phosphate level by locking them up in biomass. That is simply false. It is irrelevant if one worm is locking up these nutrients in biomass, when the worm next to it is decomposing and releasing all its stored nutrients back into the environment. Like I said. It is the population that matters. You will not get a reduction of nitrate and phosphate with a stable population of worms.

First of all, you're largely right, but there's one thing I would argue [and which I try to defend in the proposals I'm working on] is important: the worms stir up phosphate deposits (organic, mineral-bound, what have you), which shifts around its redox states and changes their solubility to change which can help return it to the water column to be removed by filtration. Again though, you're right that it's not the worms eating stuff that reduces phosphate, it's the fact that they're there stirring stuff.

How is any of this beneficial to a reef tank? Allowing organic matter to accumulate in a sand bed, then having worms move it, along with oxygen, deeper into the sand bed, simply increases the area, and speed of decomposition. Decomposition is not beneficial to a reef tank.

Actually, decomposition is a good thing, but we want only certain kinds of decomposition. Decomposition (ie breakdown of organic matter) takes place in a certain order: aerobic degradation takes place first until oxygen is depleted, and this produces ammonium as a result, which is oxidized to nitrate. This nitrate can have one of two fates: it can be used by our higher life like algal cells (including non-pest bacterial plankton), most corals, and other cellular plankton that form the base of the food chain. HOWEVER, most of the nitrate goes through the other pathway if things are operating properly (which is good, because we don't want too much flowing to the organisms and becoming pest algae floods): denitrification, which replaces oxygen as the electron acceptor to degrade organic matter after oxygen is depleted. The catch is that if there isn't enough organic matter left over (which would require at least 150 micro moles/L...a significant amount), then there will be nothing to fuel denitrification (which requires both organic matter and nitrate). If there's nothing stirring the surface and/or not enough free organic matter, then oxygen never gets used up and nitrate never gets reduced to free nitrogen. Why not just reduce the organic matter and cut off the nitrates that way? You can do that if it suits you, but be warned that all reef tanks with corals need some form of feeding. If you prefer to control the feeding yourself, then whatever method suits you...this is off topic, though.

Solid particles of organic matter are loaded with harmful nutrients.
nitrate and phosphate are not harmful (except at VERY high concentrations. They do, however, fuel growth: both the growth of our corals and reef, or algae if we don't properly manage nutrient levels with proper denitrification.

If we remove these particles, before they decompose, the nutrients they contain can not degrade our water quality. The nutrients contained in a solid particle can only degrade our water quality, after that particle has decomposed, or as it decomposes. Worms, pods, and all the other little magic critters simply aid in the decomposition process. They are part of the problem. Not the solution.

Except that it isn't a problem, as I hope I've shown. I really do hope that's clear. It's a complex topic, but I cannot stress enough that there is solid science that supports everything I said, including my own research which is in preparation for the Journal of Exmperimental Marine Biology and Ecology. Nutrients are NOT a problem unless they are in excess or depletion. The trick is a balance to get it in the sweet spot.

How is it even possible? "Biodiversity" is such a cool sounding term, that everyone thinks we must have it. Until you stop and think about what it really means. When we stock a tank, we introduce a huge diversity of organisms from many different environments around the globe. In time, some of these organisms will die off while other prosper. Those that are well suited to the conditions of our system, prosper. Those that are not, don't. We don't need a diversity of organisms. We need organisms that are well suited to our system. Nature takes care of this for us. Adding diversity, for diversities sake, simply causes more organisms to die, rot, and degrade our water quality.

It's possible because every study in the field (ie. nothing yet has been done directly for the tank, which is the research I'm working on) of benthic biodiversity (ie. the number of species or functional groups) has shown that it supports increased ecosystem function, defined as the ability to support new biomass (including coral growth), as well as denitrification, which we want to limit the supply of nitrate to reasonable levels and prevent algae overgrowth. Supporting that diversity is merely a matter of ensuring there is enough net nutrient flow to support it from the get-go; there are strong links in ecology between energy/nutrient flow and biodiversity. in the ideal case, you should never have to add diversity (though if you don't, it may cause OTC, as below). However, the original question was whether to remove the worms, and I hope I've made the case that we should keep them. [I hope very much I've made my case, because the plans for the rest of my life as well as the past decade's justification depends on that case, though in more detail] Now, all we can say now is that biodiversity dupports ecosystem function...I'm working on why that's the case and have a theory in the works (in prep for a paper), but we don't have a proven explanation yet.

IMHO, the cause of OTS is pretty obvious. It's the accumulation of rotting organic matter. I've never seen, or heard of, a clean tank suffering OTS. I've only seen it in tanks that have been neglected. The method of maintaining the typical "DSB" requires that you neglect the tank. Which is why OTS is such a common problem with DSB systems. This is just my opinion though.

I would say you're largely right in principle, but I would argue that loss of diversity causes denitrification to shut down and nitrates to accumulate to unsafe levels. You also lose the cycling of phosphates, which allows for dangerous buildups as well. Though this is only "true" OTS..many cases os so called OTS are, we seem to agree, cases of neglect.

So in other words, a sand bed does absolutely nothing to reduce phosphate.

As explained above, it has to do with helping it back into solution, where it may be complexed and removed by filtration.

In fact it is a phosphate factory on the bottom of the tank. It takes harmless solid particles containing phosphate, breaks them down, and releases that phosphate back into the system where it can fuel algae growth, and cause health, and growth problems for stony corals.

It's really the same case as with nitrates (though without the endgame of denitrification). But do remember that it's possible to remove dissolved phosphates, as well as organic-complexed phosphates, fairly easily. So having the mixing helps flush the phosphates out of the bed into the water where it can be removed by the filters. It can also be removed, of course, by corals, and do remember phosphate is necessary for growth. It can cause harm in high concentrations, but is still needed in low ones, much like nitrate. And to anticipate a potential question: why not let the phosphate stay locked up in the particles? It won't...those particles WILL be broken down if they are organic, and there is no way to prevent it in an aquarium. Mixing prevents buildup of phosphate.

I still don't see the benefit.

I hope by now that you do, though I will also add that I am not claiming it's impossible to support a reef without these. They're beneficial, though, and they can play a central part of a successful sand bed method.

And yes, I'm biased because I've spent the past 104 weeks (literally, no time off...) studying these guys. Do feel free to ask questions (though if you want citations, it must wait until I'm back on my work computer tomorrow)...I gotta be able to explain this!

Cheers!
 
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