New Nitrate theory
- Thread starter Paul B
- Start date
During the experiment, the maximum air temperature recorded was 33ºC (~91ºF) and the minimum air temperature recorded was 19ºC (~66ºF); aquarium temperatures varied less than these extremes, and ranged from 22 and 30ºC (~72 to 86ºF).
I took this from the Hovanec article. I was wondering if their were any thoughts on this as far as the temperature swings go. According to some of the works of John wiley & sons-microbes can be sensitive to swings in temperature. I wondered if it would have an effect in this case?
Any thoughts?
-Graves
I took this from the Hovanec article. I was wondering if their were any thoughts on this as far as the temperature swings go. According to some of the works of John wiley & sons-microbes can be sensitive to swings in temperature. I wondered if it would have an effect in this case?
Any thoughts?
-Graves
dtaylor123
New member
This is a good subject. Worth investigating. How long has your tank been up and running without a DSB? Is everything happy and your tank thriving? Can you show us with pictures your tank?
There are a lot of theory's and all are interesting. There is also a lot of ways to run a reef tank and many people are successful, even if they go against the latest trend. To me, I like to see results and pictures, again many ways to have good husbandry skills. To me, if your tank is thriving and doing well, then what ever you are doing works.
Good thread and topic. I think challenging against the the "normal" is good and we all can learn. This is why these boards benefit all of us and I truly believe we can learn from each other.
Dan
Aquarist007
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14664266#post14664266 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul B
My tank has been up and running without a DSB for 39 years.
forgive me if you have mentioned this before--but how have you maintained your substrate over the years---do you change it out every couple of years?
Paul B
Premium Member
Taylor, the "norm" that people always talk about came about from the internet. Saltwater tanks have been around way before the net when the "norm" was anything we tried that worked.
Now there are three or four people that write books that we casually refer to as "experts" They no doubt are not stupid and have their ways to do things which are, of course, fine. But most of them have the same or similar ways to do things.
With so few knowledgable people writing books the information stagnates a little. There is very little experimentation going on with reefers because instead of learning through trial and error we tend to read what the expert does.
It's like college (sorry Capn) I feel college removes too much of our creativity and we tend to think like the teachers who, unfortunately, have learned from the pool of teachers who all learned from the same book.
I am by far, no expert but I learned everything I know by a lot of failures. I have ways to do things that I don't put on these forums because when I mention something, I get all sorts of negative comments, usually from people with very little experience.
I use things like Clorox, quinicrine hydrocloride, Chloremphenicol and neomyacin, hydrogen peroxide New York mud UG filters, algae trays and Sakrete. I mentioned once how to cure Pop Eye in a few seconds and I got a bunch of E Mails saying I should not mention that because people may kill their fish.
Someone mailed me once saying he killed his fish because I said to put Clorox in his tank. This guy actually put Clorox in his tank and was surprised that the fish died.
:eek1:
Capn, I have never changed my dolomite gravel and it has been in there since the tank was brackish in the late sixtees. It was cleaned in 71 or so but since then, except for occasional diatoming, I have done nothing to it.:smokin:
Capn, if you look closely at that picture above of that fish in a bottle you can see all sorts of things in my gravel. Sea urchin spines, asphalt shells and probably fish bones, it's all in there
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Aquarist007
New member
You don't have do apologize to me Paul
I received my auto mechanics experience from a french canadian mechanic who would have me listen to an engine and be able to tell when the bearings were worn on the crankshaft, how to tell the difference between 9/16 and 5/8 bolt by reaching up under the car and feeling it with my fingers ect ect. I changed a motor in my future mother in laws car on the drive way just to impress here a little. It did
After 5 years of this training I went to the first class in automotive enginering at university--when I picked up a wrench they told me I wasn't allowed until second year--I never went back.
Never read a book on automechanics--unless it was a manual.
My uncle trained me as a painter. We cut in everything by hand--never did learn how to use tape on the woodwork. Never read a book on painting. No college for that.
Another uncle taught me to farm at age 14-15. I done all my landscaping myself and even landscaped and designed for others.
Never read a book and never went to college for that.
Being fishing since I was nine years old. I know how to use the wind, the temperature of the air, the temperature of the water, the rainfall ect ect to help that hobby. I was taught how to fish by one of the truly experienced guys I know in the hobby,
Never read a book on fishing but I watched alot of shows on tv and gone to alot of sportsman shows.
The only thing I learned in university was that I didn't want to be there----as you put it above-- I didn't want to learn the same old boring stuff from the same old boring types.
I went to teachers college because I wanted to be a science teacher--it was a means to still use my hands and my senses. I had my first tank when I was 12--which makes me longer in this hobby then you--unfortunately not in salt water due to geographical location---here the stuff was really expensive--and water from Lake Ontario is not good for a marine tank--not good for a fresh water tank either.
Oh I did read some books on aquariums and fish as part of the course.
The first tanks I had in my classes me made from plates of glass and silicone that I was able to scrounge. At one time we had 20 tanks on the go. We raised hamsters, rabbits, bats, mice, rats, squirrels, tarantuas, scorpions, land crabs(which I smuggled back from a trip), Also turtles, frogs, toads, salamanders, meal worms.
Beside tropical fish we had trout, bass, pike, perch.
You can learn alot from watching and caring for these animals.
____________________________________________________
So after 40 years I'm still hanging with guys like you and Waterkeeper--why because its darned interesting and knowledgeable what you guys say and have done in this hobby.
:thumbsup:
BTW
I still don't read books---articles I can hack but I like these forums
:lol:
Learning is a good thing. Quality hands on experience is hard to beat. Formal education provides knowledge that helps to interpret and give meaning to experience in my opinion. Reading about the hobby won't make someone an expert. Reading particularly studies and facts as opposed to musings and theories , education and experience supplement one another .
Paul B
Premium Member
Capn, thats great, we have a lot in common. I was also a mechanic. My Dad died when I was 10 and my neighbor owned a junk yard so he gave me a job when I was 12.
I started cutting parts out of cars with a torch when I was about 14 and learned everything internally about cars in that junkyard.
Then I graduated to a gas station where I also worked with one of those old guys that would just make me listen to the engine.
Then I got a job with General Motors as an A rated mechanic.
To this day I have never let anyone touch my car, boat, refrigerator, stove TV , home or anything else. I have never hired any one for anything except dentists, and if I could see in there, I would do that too.
I will change the engine (like you in the driveway) and have rebuilt too many engines to count. Transmissions also.
Thats how you learn. Of course you can learn in a mechanic school but then you won't learn that a bent screw on a flywheel cover will cause a leak or the sound of a timing chain about to go.
You want to hear the sound of hundreds of engines so you can tell when something is about to fail. Those Old Timers taught you how to listen to learn.
But I also read books. All sorts of books. Science books, mechanic books, marine biology books, and novels if I have time which I don't anymore.
Capn, I know you won't believe this but when I returned to the states from Nam I was awarded a citation for
(and I think they made this up) "Creativity in a combat envirnment"
I just love to build things
I think thats the biggest problem with kids today, it is much too easy. Growing up, I always had a bicycle. I would go into lots, find bike parts and build a bike. Cars also. Junk yards would sell you a car for $10.00. For a few bucks you could fix the thing up, sell it for a few hundred bucks and build another one. I always had a car also. Life is easy if you are not too lazy and know how to teach yourself a few things.
If you have to depend on other people for all of your knowledge, you are in trouble
:smokin:
Have a great day
reefworldaq
New member
Hai Paul, I think the Bob is right. After all the nutrient and all the detritus was consume by bacteri. I think all will be foul again or brake down again into amonium because all the think is stay in there. I'm now in try to use the different combination of the system.
First system :
* use 1" sand bed, ATS, Skimmer.
Second System :
* Bare bottom, ATS, Skimmer.
Between two system what did all you think the best option.
Thank's you all.
First system :
* use 1" sand bed, ATS, Skimmer.
Second System :
* Bare bottom, ATS, Skimmer.
Between two system what did all you think the best option.
Thank's you all.
ReefEnabler
Premium Member
but if I remove my 5" DSB then I won't be able to reach to the bottom of my tank anymore 
I generally agree with this type of set up, and use it on two of my display tanks, depending on the animals you wan't to keep. The one inch of sand won't support fish that need sand to burrow in or sleep in or most other sand loving creatures.In my opinion, a deeper sand bed may provide a minimal amount of additional denitrification but may be more of a maintenance headache long term. If you want jawfish, certain wrasses.,pistol shrimp ,certain gobies etc: deeper sand is needed. When deeper sand is used more attention needs to be paid to keeping it alive with sand creatures to insure pathways for nutrients and oxygen sources such as nitrate to move through it. Live deep sand beds can be a very interesting addition to the aquarium. I have one on one of my displays and it has been functioning well for 7 years.
sunsetSPS
New member
I went from DSB to BB and ended up SSB just because I like the natural white look of SB and don't like the bulky look of DSB (I used to have a trim to cover the DSB), DSB just to add weight to my tank. These days we have tons of effective ways to remove nitrate why bother with DSB when I don't feel like it.
herring_fish
Crazy Designer
I guess that I will chime in here.
I guess that I will chime in here.
My old tank setup:
For about 7 years, I ran a plenum and 3†of coral gravel, topped with 4†of coral sand. Mis-labeled or not, this was what people called the Jaubert style bottom. I had an algal turf scrubber so all of my nurturant levels were always zero, even though I drastically over fed.
I did however stop feeding the tank and had the scrubber off line for three months, while I was traveling. Aeration came from a short water fall. There was no skimming and no sump. This is just before I shut down the tank because I was relocating. I didn’t touch the tank in any way, no water changes, no additives, nothing. I didn’t even clean the glass.
At the end of that time, the nurturance weren’t zero but they were low and everything in the tank look great. Well it did after I finally scraped the glass.
When I was moving, I broke down the tank very carefully. The sand had not clumped, nor did the gravel. It basically looked like it did after about 6 months. There was a ¼†layer of detritus at the bottom that was very fine and flat.
My new tank setup:
In talking to one of the owners of Caribsea about my new setup, he suggested, in part, that I use all gravel in my bed. He felt that the water migration is better through gravel and Jaubert wrote of using more gravel in his systems that I originally thoght.
I will use a 55 gallon sump with a plenum and about 6†of gravel. I will all but top it off with a very porous coral rubble. This will provide an area for sponges and small critters to grow and live in safety.
In the main tank, I will simply put sand right on the bottom for cosmetic reasons only.
I guess that I will chime in here.
My old tank setup:
For about 7 years, I ran a plenum and 3†of coral gravel, topped with 4†of coral sand. Mis-labeled or not, this was what people called the Jaubert style bottom. I had an algal turf scrubber so all of my nurturant levels were always zero, even though I drastically over fed.
I did however stop feeding the tank and had the scrubber off line for three months, while I was traveling. Aeration came from a short water fall. There was no skimming and no sump. This is just before I shut down the tank because I was relocating. I didn’t touch the tank in any way, no water changes, no additives, nothing. I didn’t even clean the glass.
At the end of that time, the nurturance weren’t zero but they were low and everything in the tank look great. Well it did after I finally scraped the glass.
When I was moving, I broke down the tank very carefully. The sand had not clumped, nor did the gravel. It basically looked like it did after about 6 months. There was a ¼†layer of detritus at the bottom that was very fine and flat.
My new tank setup:
In talking to one of the owners of Caribsea about my new setup, he suggested, in part, that I use all gravel in my bed. He felt that the water migration is better through gravel and Jaubert wrote of using more gravel in his systems that I originally thoght.
I will use a 55 gallon sump with a plenum and about 6†of gravel. I will all but top it off with a very porous coral rubble. This will provide an area for sponges and small critters to grow and live in safety.
In the main tank, I will simply put sand right on the bottom for cosmetic reasons only.
Paul B
Premium Member
Actually Jean Jaubert designed that system because the sand systems were having problems with hydrogen sulfide and so were deep gravel systems.
Unfortunately his systems were not in service for too many years and they were in a public aquarium system. BoB Goemans wrote about configuring them to home aquariums.
The only problem with them is that they don't have much nitrate reducing capabilities. The problems with sand was that there is too little water flowing through the sand and the Jaubert problem was that there was too much water flowing. If you could get just the right size of gravel/sand, it should work perfectly. Or almost.
Herrring-fish, your system with that much gravel may work fine. Only one way to find out.
Unfortunately his systems were not in service for too many years and they were in a public aquarium system. BoB Goemans wrote about configuring them to home aquariums.
The only problem with them is that they don't have much nitrate reducing capabilities. The problems with sand was that there is too little water flowing through the sand and the Jaubert problem was that there was too much water flowing. If you could get just the right size of gravel/sand, it should work perfectly. Or almost.
Herrring-fish, your system with that much gravel may work fine. Only one way to find out.
elegance coral
They call me EC
I agree with this to a point. It's true that in some systems water changes will only cause a temporary reduction in nitrate. Is this due to some newly discovered process or magical bacteria? No. In order for LR and sand to release nitrate into the open water, there has to be a sourse. In order to elevate nitrate levels within days, as suggested above, there needs to be a sizable sourse. That sourse is decomposing organic matter. Better known in the aquarium hobby as detritus. Ammonification takes place through decomposition. Ammonia and nitrite can not escape sand or LR when there is a healthy aerobic layer. Nitrate and nitrogen gas can. The simple solution to reducing the amount of nitrate that can escape these substrates, would be to limit the fuel these bacteria use to produce it. In other words. Keep the sand and LR clean and it can't dump problem causing levels of nitrate into the system.
IMHO. The problem with DSB's is the notion that you can leave them alone indefinitely and they will magically send all decomposing matter, and the substances produced from it, to a parallel universe. When DSB's are left undisturbed for extended periods of time, detritus accumulates. This detritus can accumulate faster than it can be broken down by the bacteria. Eventually you end up with the equivalent of a large rotting grouper carcass on the bottom of your tank.
So......Simply keep the LR and sand clean, and all these problems go away.
Oh, boy this new information is confusing me even more. I'm in a process of upgrading my refugium to even bigger and deeper. Currently I have 10" DSB with fine oolitic sand. I am building a new refugium so that it can handle depth of 14". Now I am not sure what to do? Should I keep building and set up 14" dSB or should I follow the new wave and only go for about 4"????
Some background on my refugium with DSB. It was set up about 9 months ago with only about 6". Nitrates dropped to about 10. No green algae issues. Some cyano issues because I had phosphates, I introduced phosban reactor and for 6 months there were no issues with any algae, or cyano. Everything was very well.
3 months ago I decided to put in more sand in the DSB, since the 6" brought my nitrates from 40's down to about 10 why not, maybe I can drop it even more. Well I added another 4" to 5". Now I am at 10" +. Since I added more depth I started to experience issues with cyano, green algae. I am starting to see wired green algae growing in the crevices on my live rock. My zoos get cover with cyano daily and I need to clean them daily. I have 3 tangs and an angel fish which are picking at the algae all the time and they can't keep up with it. My nitrates are off the chart at about ~60
Not sure what to do now. I am hearing one side saying go deeper hence I want to go 14", and now this which is saying go shallower.
I am even considering to get a denitrator but these are not cheap.
I change phosphate media every 3 weeks!!! I trim my cheato every week, and do WC every other week.
What depth would you guys recommend? Any other suggestions.
Some background on my refugium with DSB. It was set up about 9 months ago with only about 6". Nitrates dropped to about 10. No green algae issues. Some cyano issues because I had phosphates, I introduced phosban reactor and for 6 months there were no issues with any algae, or cyano. Everything was very well.
3 months ago I decided to put in more sand in the DSB, since the 6" brought my nitrates from 40's down to about 10 why not, maybe I can drop it even more. Well I added another 4" to 5". Now I am at 10" +. Since I added more depth I started to experience issues with cyano, green algae. I am starting to see wired green algae growing in the crevices on my live rock. My zoos get cover with cyano daily and I need to clean them daily. I have 3 tangs and an angel fish which are picking at the algae all the time and they can't keep up with it. My nitrates are off the chart at about ~60
Not sure what to do now. I am hearing one side saying go deeper hence I want to go 14", and now this which is saying go shallower.
I am even considering to get a denitrator but these are not cheap.
I change phosphate media every 3 weeks!!! I trim my cheato every week, and do WC every other week.
What depth would you guys recommend? Any other suggestions.
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