NEW plumbing method for an ULTRA QUIET REEF TANK!!!! LONG !!!!

[PowermanKW]

whoops

 

[The REeFFers]

What's the safety in the durso. I'm new at Plumding so I'm just trying to read and learn. I think that one durso and one herbie are just as likely go get blocked am I right? The herbie is just that much better caz it has an E-drain ? Or maybe I should read 300pages on the durso today

 

[jthomps123]

Nobody said the point was to be practical.... the point is 100% fail safe overflow, and three drains accomplishes that.... bar none. The Bean write up is a good one for explaining overflows and how to make them silent. He accomplishes that with a 100% fool proof setup that will NEVER fail.

I like a modified Herbie too. Instead of using the RR drains, doing a custom and not using the 3rd drain is fine by me. Espesially if you mde your emergency bigger than your main and used as a open channel as well. I would sleep fine.

However, the Herbie needs a overflow box like a RR tank. That deep well of water regulates flow. If you just had a 4" calfo it would be hard to keep air out and everything full. Hence the Bean siphon on the Calfo overflow. You could still use a Calfo Coast to Coast and a deep internal overflow, or even external. But it would have to have some depth to give some stability in my mind.

I use a herbie with with two standpipes and NO overflow whatsoever with no problem. My level stays consistent and is just as failsafe as a bean overflow. I am still lost as to how the third drain adds anything except added expense and labor.

 

[The REeFFers]

in PowermanKW be half id like to remind you that in my situation Im bending the rules and only going with one over flow. BUT I have an idea

 

[The REeFFers]

Here is the idea... JUST an idea ill probable go with the durso so I can just have one drain.

The change is the GREEN line it will T off before the gate valve so if there is any blockage at the gate valve it will have an E- drain. What do you guys thinking ?

 

[PowermanKW]

What's the safety in the durso. I'm new at Plumding so I'm just trying to read and learn. I think that one durso and one herbie are just as likely go get blocked am I right? The herbie is just that much better caz it has an E-drain ? Or maybe I should read 300pages on the durso today

The Durso is completely open and free flowing. There is air in there which does not flow as much water. So it has more potential capacity. You are not using all of it. Overflows are built to a rating, and your overflow will flow so much GPH. A Herbie puts a restriction in there to purposely back the water up and restrict flow to keep the air out. That's fine at equilibrium, but it is not a wide open pipe able to handle more flow if needed. Hence the emergency drain.

 

[PowermanKW]

I use a herbie with with two standpipes and NO overflow whatsoever with no problem. My level stays consistent and is just as failsafe as a bean overflow. I am still lost as to how the third drain adds anything except added expense and labor.

Well.... The main drain is retricted on the Bean. It is set to not flow 100%. Say 80%. The other 20% is supposed to go down the open channel drain for regulaton. Now the open channel drain is not restricted, so if the main was to get clogged, it can do 100%. But the open channel capacity is already taken up 20%, so you only have the 80% left say...(not really cause the main is restricted and the open is free flow)..... so just incase anything else happens the emergency is there waiting to take 100% unrestricted full flow.

Now that is a the design, and that is why it is that way. Is it needed..... well I think it is over kill. But is the Bean 100.0% fail safe.....100.0% absolutely!!! But the way the Herbie is....especially if you did custom and bigger drains.... is 99.9% fail safe.

I'm sure if you went to the Bean thread and read through it, there are probably folks not running a third drain. Just like some here don't run an emergency. Not running an emergency is not safe in my mind, but not running a third drain on a Bean is probably 99.9% safe. You would really have to take that up with Bean owners. In my mind, if you ran a bigger open channel than a main on a Bean, you would accomplish a very fail safe desing and save running a third line all the way to the sump. I never really thought about it. I wanted to do a Bean on my next tank.... but wasn't really thrilled with all the plumbing. So now I don't see why doing a sort of custom hybrid Bean/Herbie would not be just as good.

 

[PowermanKW]

Here is the idea... JUST an idea ill probable go with the durso so I can just have one drain.

The change is the GREEN line it will T off before the gate valve so if there is any blockage at the gate valve it will have an E- drain. What do you guys thinking ?

It does not matter how you accomplish it. It does not matter how many lines you put in. You have to restrict flow to back up the overflow to keep the air out. So no matter how you do it, you will still end up with restricted flow for it to work right, and there is always the possibility of clogging some of that flow and then being left with not enough. What are the chances..... don't know..... but not worth doing in my mind. Completely defeating the safety of the overflow and you run the risk of overflowing your tank. Why take that chance? The benefit to risk is not justified in my mind. Save a catastrophy and run a Durso. Do a Herbie when you can set it up properly. JMHO

 

[Haxer]

Does the Herbie Mod have any problems with shutting of the return pump, say for feeding time(10 min) then restarting it... I.E do you have to readjust it or is it good to go with the previous tuning...?

 

[LSUtiger]

I have a question about my setup. It's an Elos tank if anyone here is familiar with those. The overflow box is not the typical overflow box in that there is no level held in the box (the box has no bottom, just a big square hole with the overflow pipe and return pipe taking up some space). The overflow happens through a bulkhead on the side of the overflow box, not the bottom. Does this make sense?

I was wondering if a similar siphon method to eliminate air in the overflow line could be used on this system. Would I lose surface skimming capabilities? In my system, if the drain is completely submerged, the surface is never being skimmed. I would be replying on surface agitation by my pump. Would I be likely to see a film develop over time despite the pump surface agitation?

As far as flooding, I don't think I have enough volume in the return section of my sump to overflow the tank. I'd have to check again to make sure. I remember it being close, but I have room to lower the level in the return section if I needed to. I also have a low level shutoff in my return section as well as auto-top off.

The system isn't overly noisy, but there is a gentle trickle sound that if I could get rid of, I'd love to.

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks,
Mark

 

[PowermanKW]

Does the Herbie Mod have any problems with shutting of the return pump, say for feeding time(10 min) then restarting it... I.E do you have to readjust it or is it good to go with the previous tuning...?

I don't turn mine off for feeding, so I don't do it daily. When I do turn off my pump, it's the same when I turn it back on.

 

[PowermanKW]

I have a question about my setup. It's an Elos tank if anyone here is familiar with those. The overflow box is not the typical overflow box in that there is no level held in the box (the box has no bottom, just a big square hole with the overflow pipe and return pipe taking up some space). The overflow happens through a bulkhead on the side of the overflow box, not the bottom. Does this make sense?

I was wondering if a similar siphon method to eliminate air in the overflow line could be used on this system. Would I lose surface skimming capabilities? In my system, if the drain is completely submerged, the surface is never being skimmed. I would be replying on surface agitation by my pump. Would I be likely to see a film develop over time despite the pump surface agitation?

As far as flooding, I don't think I have enough volume in the return section of my sump to overflow the tank. I'd have to check again to make sure. I remember it being close, but I have room to lower the level in the return section if I needed to. I also have a low level shutoff in my return section as well as auto-top off.

The system isn't overly noisy, but there is a gentle trickle sound that if I could get rid of, I'd love to.

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks,
Mark

I'm not that familiar with Elos, other than how nice they look. You bring up a good point about not having enough water in your return section to overflow the tank. Very valid point. I on the other hand do. How big is your ATO resevoir? My return and resivoir would be enough to oveflow. Probably like 5 gallons. I don't have a low water level shut off, but that would be another layer of safety. I mean your ato will empty, but then shut down if that is not enough. Depending on amonuts.... could be enough to save you.

One of many reasons I will never connect a auto RO/DI to an ATO.

 

[PowermanKW]

woops

 

[LSUtiger]

My ATO reservoir is another 5 gallons. It will shut off after a small amount of time, and I use an aqualifter, which pumps a very small amount of water. I don't think the ATO would contribute much to the possibility of overflowing. Good comment. Thanks. I would have to make sure to consider that.

Anyone else?

Thanks,
Mark

 

[Reefer08]

So basically with the herbie our biggest fear is the primary drain not being able to siphon fast enough correct?

How about using 1 overflow with the Herbie and having a float valve in the sump. Once the float valve gets triggered the return pump is shut off. Or have a sump with baffles so their is a return section which would only add around 5g in the case that the drain can not siphon fast enough.

 

[jthomps123]

Well.... The main drain is retricted on the Bean. It is set to not flow 100%. Say 80%. The other 20% is supposed to go down the open channel drain for regulaton. Now the open channel drain is not restricted, so if the main was to get clogged, it can do 100%. But the open channel capacity is already taken up 20%, so you only have the 80% left say...(not really cause the main is restricted and the open is free flow)..... so just incase anything else happens the emergency is there waiting to take 100% unrestricted full flow.

Now that is a the design, and that is why it is that way. Is it needed..... well I think it is over kill. But is the Bean 100.0% fail safe.....100.0% absolutely!!! But the way the Herbie is....especially if you did custom and bigger drains.... is 99.9% fail safe.

I'm sure if you went to the Bean thread and read through it, there are probably folks not running a third drain. Just like some here don't run an emergency. Not running an emergency is not safe in my mind, but not running a third drain on a Bean is probably 99.9% safe. You would really have to take that up with Bean owners. In my mind, if you ran a bigger open channel than a main on a Bean, you would accomplish a very fail safe desing and save running a third line all the way to the sump. I never really thought about it. I wanted to do a Bean on my next tank.... but wasn't really thrilled with all the plumbing. So now I don't see why doing a sort of custom hybrid Bean/Herbie would not be just as good.

I still dont see how the Bean (which in reality is only a hybrid herbie), is more failsafe than a herbie. If one pipe can get clogged than 2 can, or 10 for that matter. The only difference here is the added emergency drain. Which is just as unnecessary there as it is as a 2nd emergency drain on a Herbie. Having the open channel drain in the bean just seems to add more chance for noise in the drain as it is not air-tight and water is falling in free air.

I must be really dull because I think the bean drain is pointless. I see no advantages, only added cost and complexity. If you want double redundancy just simply install a 2nd emergency drain to a herbie drain.

 

[jthomps123]

So basically with the herbie our biggest fear is the primary drain not being able to siphon fast enough correct?

How about using 1 overflow with the Herbie and having a float valve in the sump. Once the float valve gets triggered the return pump is shut off. Or have a sump with baffles so their is a return section which would only add around 5g in the case that the drain can not siphon fast enough.

No the fear is the siphon drain getting blocked and getting out of sync with your return - with an emergency drain this is not an issue.

A float valve has a much higher failure rate than a dry emergency drain and having your return pump run dry is a costly proposition.

A single dry emergency drain is the easiest solution to a siphon drain.

 

[PowermanKW]

I still dont see how the Bean (which in reality is only a hybrid herbie), is more failsafe than a herbie. If one pipe can get clogged than 2 can, or 10 for that matter. The only difference here is the added emergency drain. Which is just as unnecessary there as it is as a 2nd emergency drain on a Herbie. Having the open channel drain in the bean just seems to add more chance for noise in the drain as it is not air-tight and water is falling in free air.

I must be really dull because I think the bean drain is pointless. I see no advantages, only added cost and complexity. If you want double redundancy just simply install a 2nd emergency drain to a herbie drain.

Glad you have it straight in your mind.

The open channel in the Bean is silent. Water sticking to the walls does not make noise.

 

[PowermanKW]

So basically with the herbie our biggest fear is the primary drain not being able to siphon fast enough correct?

How about using 1 overflow with the Herbie and having a float valve in the sump. Once the float valve gets triggered the return pump is shut off. Or have a sump with baffles so their is a return section which would only add around 5g in the case that the drain can not siphon fast enough.

There is no siphon in the Herbie. It is nothing more than a simple drain. A float might make sense for pump protection, but it is not need for overflow protection for the Herbie. Most folks run baffles in their sump for other reason. My return section is baffled off. That is what the emergency drain is for and it does a fine job.

The water hight in the overflow provide an amount of regulation. Higher water, more head pressure, higher flow through the valve.

 

[jthomps123]

Glad you have it straight in your mind.

The open channel in the Bean is silent. Water sticking to the walls does not make noise.

What does that mean? Straight in my mind?

I hope nobody else here gets convinced that a Bean drain is "more practical" than a Herbie. Sorry, 2 drains are more practical than 3.