Newbie Corner Feedback Thread

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14849947#post14849947 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
IMO adding ammonia to the tank is not a viable choice. The cycling of the live rock is more then enough for the bacteria to establish given the time to do so,
The word "time" is very important. Adding things to try and speed up the establishment of a biological filtration system can prove very dangerous; you are better off to let nature do its thing for trhe 3 to 5 weeks it normally takes.

Bacteria will rise to a given biomass but when the biomass is taken care of their numbers level off only to have to recycle when a new biomass is introduced---I think this is what you were referring to when you mentioned equiibrium state.

I also agree with you that there are other processes going on in a newly setup aquarium.
Waterkeeper mentioned that water changes don't affect the cycling bacteria in that they are not water borne.

My question would be if water changes can affect the development of other processes and cycling that is trying to establish in the aquarium(eg the food chain---the development of basic foods--phyto and zooplankton)




I'm a bit confused as to how it is not a viable choice? Did an eye dropper and household ammonia become difficult to obtain? :P

When a tank cycles with no fish load, the equilibrium reaches is not the same equilibrium as when it has a fish constantly excreeting ammonia, which is nearly effortless to simulate with an eye dropper and ammonia.

I agree you can leave the tank entirely alone, and it will swing back and forth between exponential bloom, followed by mass die-off, then decay of bacterial biomass re-triggers another exponential boom. Each swing to a lesser extent, until a balance is reached. With a simple eye-dropper and 30seconds of your time, you can lessen the extent of the mass die-off stage, and more quickly smooth out the ripple. Getting the ammonia stage smoothed out quickly provides a more stable source for lower energy N processing flora to develop, and shortens the cycle.

I tested this effect in college between a pair of 10gal tanks, with recording ammonia levels, nitrate levels, and pH. You could reach the stability point in less than half the time with the very minimal effort of Ammonia doseing.

It's a very simple low effort test to perform yourself at home. If you don't trust my testing, please feel free to test yourself.


Best Wishes,
-Luke
 
I for one thought that it was a great column... It finally put to bed a lot of those questions that kept springing up over and over again. And I think that “speak volumes” ^^^:rolleyes: on the caliber of newbie we are getting today they are reading waterkeepers columns and forming some great questions.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14849970#post14849970 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
BTW
good discussion points Luke--its refreshing:smokin:

I always thought osmosis and diffusion were passive transport processes??


Osmosis is certianly a passive process. A lower ion concentration moves to a higher ion concentration through a membrane. In this case the membrane is the gills (and technically all living surface tissues of the fish to a lesser extent). The fish's blood is in a constant state of being dehydrated by the higher ionic solution of saltwater. A very non-passive and energy consuming process is what the fish must constantly be doing to keep it's blood at the needed low ionic concentration.

See above refrences for more specific details.

For example, ask a breeder what the mortality rates look like in raising fry between a 1.014g/cm^3 solution vs a 1.025g/cm^3. I think something like 1:8 mortality rate difference comes to mind, though I don't care to look up the source.

It was just a fluke that I happened to try to log-into RC during the downtime, and eneded up reading the article, which linked me to this area of the forum I have never seen before, and likely am not a welcome component.

Best Wishes,
-Luke
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14850074#post14850074 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sisterlimonpot
I for one thought that it was a great column... It finally put to bed a lot of those questions that kept springing up over and over again. And I think that “speak volumes” ^^^:rolleyes: on the caliber of newbie we are getting today they are reading waterkeepers columns and forming some great questions.


*said only in jest, please don't take personal offense*

I'm glad you enjoyed it. Be certain to perform daily water-changes with full salinity water on your cycling tank while using carbon to reduce the bio-load. And if anyone suggest a cheap and simple way to improve evening/night time aesthetics/enjoyment of your tank, tell them to buzz-off, because you know better now.



*said only in jest, please don't take personal offense*
:mixed: :eek1: :D :confused: :eek: :rolleye1: :rollface: :o :p


Promise this is my last trip to the newb section. I apologize for any disruptions.

Best Wishes, and good luck in all reef keeping

-Luke
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14850282#post14850282 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by liveforphysics
*said only in jest, please don't take personal offense*

I'm glad you enjoyed it. Be certain to perform daily water-changes with full salinity water on your cycling tank while using carbon to reduce the bio-load. And if anyone suggest a cheap and simple way to improve evening/night time aesthetics/enjoyment of your tank, tell them to buzz-off, because you know better now.



*said only in jest, please don't take personal offense*
:mixed: :eek1: :D :confused: :eek: :rolleye1: :rollface: :o :p


Promise this is my last trip to the newb section. I apologize for any disruptions.

Best Wishes, and good luck in all reef keeping

-Luke

Luke----I for one appreciate your expertise especially in this area and appreciate being able to have a meaningful discussion on this thread for a change(I have been as guilty as others for being a little to humerous at times)
Please don't take wanting to have a discussion as a personal dig or what ever on yourself.
This is a new to the reef forum but it does not mean that all new to the reef people are scientifically illiterate to the point where they can't follow a somewhat scientific discussion on the issue.

Besides this forum being the best hands on practical advise forum in cyberspace IMO everyone here can profit from learning some biological and chemical processes behind the things or advise they are suggested to follow.

You and I put this thread back on track and especially with your input of the most recent of Water Keepers articles----lets keep it up realizing that many many other reefers are looking in also--they may not be posting but their listening in;)
 
For those who don't know about cycling a tank with ammonia, that came about many years ago and the theory is that if you add ammonia instead of organic waste, all of the available spaces will be populated with ammonia consuming bacteria instead of some other benign bacteria that will not help us with our nitrogen cycling.
I am not sure how long that would work for but I have used that method and don't really notice any difference.

Hey Waterkeeper, what are you on vacation or something?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14850057#post14850057 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by liveforphysics
I'm a bit confused as to how it is not a viable choice? Did an eye dropper and household ammonia become difficult to obtain? :P

When a tank cycles with no fish load, the equilibrium reaches is not the same equilibrium as when it has a fish constantly excreeting ammonia, which is nearly effortless to simulate with an eye dropper and ammonia.

I agree you can leave the tank entirely alone, and it will swing back and forth between exponential bloom, followed by mass die-off, then decay of bacterial biomass re-triggers another exponential boom. Each swing to a lesser extent, until a balance is reached. With a simple eye-dropper and 30seconds of your time, you can lessen the extent of the mass die-off stage, and more quickly smooth out the ripple. Getting the ammonia stage smoothed out quickly provides a more stable source for lower energy N processing flora to develop, and shortens the cycle.

I tested this effect in college between a pair of 10gal tanks, with recording ammonia levels, nitrate levels, and pH. You could reach the stability point in less than half the time with the very minimal effort of Ammonia doseing.

It's a very simple low effort test to perform yourself at home. If you don't trust my testing, please feel free to test yourself.


Best Wishes,
-Luke

Maybe viable was a poor choice of words. Live rock and lack of expertise comes to mind as variables for a reefer new to this hobby.
Many times we have encouraged the use of other means for cycling a tank including adding ammonia, add damsel fish, dead shrimp meat ect ect.
It can cause problems with ammonia spikes ect and it "maybe" a little challenging for someone new to handle.
And when you think about it they are back into a situation where they have to possilby perform daily water changes----an issue you slightly disagreed with Water Keeper stating.

or was it my initial disagreement;) it did feel IMO that water changes were unnecessary in the initial weeks of tank cycling if one was to follow the natural way of cycling a tank by putting live rock that was at least partly curred in the tank and patiently waiting the 3-5 weeks, letting the algae blooms happen ect ect.

I can see one use for ammonia and or a dead shrimp--and that is to test the state of a cycling tank if the reefer has not measured or had a measurement of ammonia and nitrates over the first three weeks of tank cycling.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14850375#post14850375 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul B
For those who don't know about cycling a tank with ammonia, that came about many years ago and the theory is that if you add ammonia instead of organic waste, all of the available spaces will be populated with ammonia consuming bacteria instead of some other benign bacteria that will not help us with our nitrogen cycling.
I am not sure how long that would work for but I have used that method and don't really notice any difference.

Hey Waterkeeper, what are you on vacation or something?

welcome back Paul--missed you

while at least we have 1/2 of the dynamic duo back:D
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14850375#post14850375 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul B
For those who don't know about cycling a tank with ammonia, that came about many years ago and the theory is that if you add ammonia instead of organic waste, all of the available spaces will be populated with ammonia consuming bacteria instead of some other benign bacteria that will not help us with our nitrogen cycling.
I am not sure how long that would work for but I have used that method and don't really notice any difference.

Hey Waterkeeper, what are you on vacation or something?

do you agree that is something we should not recommend a beginning reefer to be doing?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14850282#post14850282 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by liveforphysics



Promise this is my last trip to the newb section. I apologize for any disruptions.



-Luke

i really hope you reconsider luke, we need you on this forum:)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14850461#post14850461 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Michael
i really hope you reconsider luke, we need you on this forum:)

thanks for joining us Michael--any thoughts on the above posts?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14850467#post14850467 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
thanks for joining us Michael--any thoughts on the above posts?

hey scott:) as in ammonia for the cycle? well even though im new to reefs just 18 months now, ive never used any form of ammonia to cycle any tank and ive had a few fish only over the years, quite a few in fact and usually i just let the tank run for 6-8 weeks with the biological filteration slowly getting a bacterial colony on its own, theres always some waste in the tank and nature has its own way of maturing an aquatic aquarium, i suppose a pinch of food once a week would help speed things along, but even without it it will eventually cycle. with the discovery of live rock we have come along way, but in the old days with undergravel filters the tank always seemed to cycle eventually, not sure about adding ammonia myself, although id never say it was wrong as i never really tried it, im just watching this thread and trying to gain knowledge from you and paul b:)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14850527#post14850527 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Michael
hey scott:) as in ammonia for the cycle? well even though im new to reefs just 18 months now, ive never used any form of ammonia to cycle any tank and ive had a few fish only over the years, quite a few in fact and usually i just let the tank run for 6-8 weeks with the biological filteration slowly getting a bacterial colony on its own, theres always some waste in the tank and nature has its own way of maturing an aquatic aquarium, i suppose a pinch of food once a week would help speed things along, but even without it it will eventually cycle. with the discovery of live rock we have come along way, but in the old days with undergravel filters the tank always seemed to cycle eventually, not sure about adding ammonia myself, although id never say it was wrong as i never really tried it, im just watching this thread and trying to gain knowledge from you and paul b:)

thanks Michael
I'm not stating it is wrong to cycle with ammonia--although I do feel it is a cruel practise to use live fish
Rather--IMO---it is not something we want new reefers to adopt as practise. Sure it is easy to do--but the side affects might be more problematic.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14849093#post14849093 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by liveforphysics
I disagree with 4 of the 8 points in this article.

Waterchanges delay cycle:

"Cycled" is just another word for dynamic balance between various compound evolution, and it's breakdown to lower thermodynamic states(and less hazardous) via various bio-driven process.

Adding a metered quanity of Ammonia to the tank daily would be a much more productive alternative than waterchanges. It also creates bacteria levels in a ready state to keep fish.

It has nothing to do with bacteria in the water. It has to do with not distrubing the various parts of the cycle from reaching a dynamic equilibrium.

IMHO, you are recomending a foolish waste of resources.

Some of that argument is indeed true but, as you stated, it is a bio-driven event and adding ammonia to an already rich environment is not needed. As LR cures it releases vast amounts of ammonia into the water column. Far more than will be needed when the tank is fully cycled and more that the attached biofilm will be able to readily process in a steady state condition.

The idea of doing water changes in a cycling tank is to lessen the overall impact of dissolved organics on the environment. As the cycle comes to completion many of the bacteria spawned by the high nutrient levels will perish and their decomposition will fuel forthcoming algae outbreaks.


Reduced Salinity:
Running lower(not hypo) salinity in a FO isn't about harming bad protozoa. It's about a reduction in the osmotic stress energy budget of the fish. The higher the salinity, the more energy the fish expends in maintaining it's own blood. It has been proven many times that the oxygen demand and metabolic energy needs of a fish are reduced as the solution approaches isosmotic to the fish's blood. If a fish is weak, starving, recovering from shipping stress, mal-nurished, etc, then a lower salinity enviroment leaves them with more energy budget left for other processes, including immune system. If you wish to see evidence of this:

Nordlie F.G. 1978. The influence of environmental salinity on respiratory oxygen demands in the euryhaline teleost, Ambassis interrupta Bleeker. Comp. Biochem. Physiol. A 59:271-274.

Woo N.Y.S. and Chung K.C. 1995. Tolerance of Pomacanthus imperator to hypoosmotic salinities: changes in body composition and hepatic enzyme activities. J. Fish Biol. 47(1):70-81.

Wu R.S.S. and Woo N.Y.S. 1983. Tolerance of hypo-osmotic salinities in thirteen species of adult marine fish: implications for estuarine fish culture. Aquaculture 32:175-181.

In dealing with energy budgets of a marine fish we must remember that their bodies are acclimated to a certain salinity. Fish do not move into brackish estuarine waters for the most part and certainly not reef fish. Forcing them to undergo arbitrary hyposalinic conditions is, in my view, not conducive to proper acclimation and certainly does not inhibit the infections caused by parasitic protozoa.


Live sand:
I agree that packaged live sand is absolutely not needed, and that any approprate sand and a single piece of live rock will be adquate. However, most all brands of live sand are just scoops of sand from an ocean, and do amazingly include live animals like bristle worms and various pods. I've seen this myself from poking through the contents of a bag of caribsea. The durability of these animals is so tough, during a tank moving process, I once left my old sandbed in trash sacks in an unheated garage in winter for 2 months. Upon opening to wash out the sand and re-use, I was amazed to see various live worms, pods, and even hermit crabs that were still alive in the sand.

I will need to bow to your observations on that matter. In most cases the packaged LS I have seen is mainly dry aragonites that were submerged and seed with prilled bacteria. They were devoid of things like bristle worms or other sandbed invertebrate. It may be that I just selected an overage batch.

Moonlights:
I never had snail or coral spawning events until I used them. Not going to try to debate anything, could be purely coindinces, but I personally do think they effect the behavior of certian animals. Certianly not critical for a newb starting out, and I have no disgreement with you putting this point in your article, though I'm a bit confused as to why. If it offers an enhancement of asthetic effect at minimal cost, I don't see why it wouldn't be viewed as a great thing for anyone keeping a tank for asthetic purposes (newbs).

Snails breed readily in most reef tanks. Sexual reproduction of coral in a reef tank is, thank goodness, fairly rare. Even an experienced reefkeeper would be severely challenged to raise corals spawned after such an event.


Activated Carbon:
"Carbon improves water quality and reduces bioload on the tank, so I would say to go ahead and use it."

Carbon does not reduce bioload on a tank... It has it's purposes, and is fine in moderation. It's useful lifespan in a tank is over extremely quickly, and is nothing to rely on as an alternative to bio-processes.

There are many dissolved substances that can be used by bacteria to fuel growth and reproduction. Although not a major player in reducing food sources for microorganisms carbon does reduce this loading to some extent, especially when changed on a routine basis



Other than those points, I enjoy your writing style, and I thought the rest of the article was spot-on.

Best Wishes,
-Luke
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14850282#post14850282 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by liveforphysics
*said only in jest, please don't take personal offense*

I'm glad you enjoyed it. Be certain to perform daily water-changes with full salinity water on your cycling tank while using carbon to reduce the bio-load. And if anyone suggest a cheap and simple way to improve evening/night time aesthetics/enjoyment of your tank, tell them to buzz-off, because you know better now.



*said only in jest, please don't take personal offense*
:mixed: :eek1: :D :confused: :eek: :rolleye1: :rollface: :o :p


Promise this is my last trip to the newb section. I apologize for any disruptions.

Best Wishes, and good luck in all reef keeping

-Luke

Luke,

Please stay with us. I found your comments most refreshing and I have no problem with discussing differing opinions. All are welcome here and they are invited to share different views on anything I discuss. It is not "my way or the highway" on any thread I write.

"All are welcome here". I think I stole that line from Poltergeist. ;)
 
said only in jest, please don't take personal offense*

I am just the opposite, anything I say is a personal offense, no offense :D

Capn, I was only gone for a few hours. I was looking for another good mud collection place.
So, here's mud in your eye, I found one.

As for cycling with ammonia, I feel that I would recommend it kind of maybe, or not.
In other words, I don't think it makes a difference. As I said I have cycled tanks all sorts of ways and in a couple of months, I really don't see any difference.
I don't even remember how I cycled my tank or if I even knew what that was. Maybe Moses gave me some of that fish from the dead sea.

In all probability, the die off from live rock should give you all the bacteria you need. I would just put some regular aquarium food in there once in a while like mysis.
This Noob advice is Waterkeeper's job and I would listen to him.
I am a little radical for a Noob forum so I don't like to give my opinion too often here. You know the things I put in my tank. :rolleyes:

On another note, I just visited a tank which is about 4 or 500 gallons in a car wash, a real fancy car wash. A LFS set the thing up for the place for $30,000.00.
I told him I would have done it for about a tenth of that. He wants me to take care of the thing but I am too busy for that. It would be a nice gig though.
:dance:
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14852442#post14852442 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul B
I am just the opposite, anything I say is a personal offense, no offense :D

Capn, I was only gone for a few hours. I was looking for another good mud collection place.
So, here's mud in your eye, I found one.

As for cycling with ammonia, I feel that I would recommend it kind of maybe, or not.
In other words, I don't think it makes a difference. As I said I have cycled tanks all sorts of ways and in a couple of months, I really don't see any difference.
I don't even remember how I cycled my tank or if I even knew what that was. Maybe Moses gave me some of that fish from the dead sea.

In all probability, the die off from live rock should give you all the bacteria you need. I would just put some regular aquarium food in there once in a while like mysis.
This Noob advice is Waterkeeper's job and I would listen to him.
I am a little radical for a Noob forum so I don't like to give my opinion too often here. You know the things I put in my tank. :rolleyes:

On another note, I just visited a tank which is about 4 or 500 gallons in a car wash, a real fancy car wash. A LFS set the thing up for the place for $30,000.00.
I told him I would have done it for about a tenth of that. He wants me to take care of the thing but I am too busy for that. It would be a nice gig though.
:dance:

that's the kind of gig I would like to find. The lfs is not rushing to hire me after I applied---and you and I both know why;)

top ups on that tank would be easy put I can imagine the size of the phosban reactor needed for it in a car wash

Boy, I would love you to fling some of that mud my way:D
 
It is probably Miracle Mud which has kept Paul's tank running for 35+ years. From Fire Island I think. :D
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14852502#post14852502 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WaterKeeper
It is probably Miracle Mud which has kept Paul's tank running for 35+ years. From Fire Island I think. :D

if he has kept it in his tank for 35 years then count me in;)
 
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