Nitrates 25ppm- Vodka, sugar or vinegar?

[Newreeflady]

New system has not quite hit nitrate processing capacity. Got some chaeto coming in tomorrow, and will do a 30% water change this weekend. But, I'd like to take more drastic measures.

I have read the trenches vodka article, and feel familiar with the method and willing to give it a go. (I also have some MB7 lying around, not that I've got much confidence in it..) Thing is, I've also ready people doing combined carbon sources, or advocating only sugar, or only the solid media, etc. I'd love to get some of your experiences with these methods.

Thanks!

 

[5380]

What are you keeping at this time?

 

[EllieSuz]

I'd try a cup of patience instead of adding anything to your tank at this point. Chaeto will help a great deal and it's a natural solution, as is a few water changes. I always think of additives of any kind as an absolutely last resort.

 

[tmz]

Hi,

Short answer: I've used vodka and vinegar 75% ethanol to 25% acetic acid)* for about 20 months with very good results. Sugar(fructose/glucose) hurt my corals even at low doses. In a high bioload 550 g system nitrates hold at 0.2 to 0.5ppm with PO4 at ,.05ppm. I also use some gfo and chaeto.

* 26 ml of 80 proof vodka which is 60% distlled water and 64 ml of white vinegar which is 95% water( 8x less concentrated than the vodka)


Long answer oversimplified a bit :

There is a process called acetogenisis wherein bacteria break down carbohydrates( polysacharrides) to monoshacharrides ( glucose etc.) to ethanol to acetate . Different strains of bacteria perform the different steps. Corals do use some acetate.

Several studies have been noted by Highland Reefer in the Reef chemistry forum showing harmful effects of glucose in particular to corals. It is thought that the bacteria involved in this process or the glucose can be harmful in some way to the coral's holibont bacterial acivity/ balances and lead to pathogenic activity.

My personal experience confirms these concerns at least anecdotally.
I tried sugar in small amounts, only 1/4 tsp per day for 550 gallons of system water. Being hard headed, I tried it twice. After about 7 days in both cases my rbta browned up and closed ,several scolymia receded and lobophylia browned. Most recovered when the sugar stopped.

The various plastic pellets are based on biodegradable polysacharrides ( carbohydrates) so they will turn to monosacharrides including glucose as they degrade before they go to ethanol and then acetate. Manufacturer's claim the pellets degrade in place without the organic carbon sources hitting the tank. I'm a little skeptical of this claim based on some of the results folks are are experiencing such as bacterial blooms in the tank. Since , I'm not keen on using carbohydrates and the sugars they convert to, I'm holding off on trying pellets until more long term experience is available and issues about localization of the carbon source are resolved.

If you start carbon dosing, I'd try to get my nitrates down to the sub 10ppm range before starting and go slowly with a lot of patience.

As a final comment, I have never used bacterial supplements when carbon dosing and I think they are uneccessary since there are plenty of viable bacteria in teh reef tank. The suplemrnted bacteria are obviously not viable at least not for long since you have to keep dosing them. I prefer to let endemic bacteria grow into the role.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

25ppm nitrates in the 20 gallon or 56 gallon?
......either way, I'd simply do large water changes.


The way that the original question is asked in this thread it kind of precludes answers like the one I gave but I figured I'd post it anyways

 

[Newreeflady]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the reply. It is the 56g we're talking about. I do plan on implementing water changes, might do one tonight since I've got about 10-15g made already. The system is 56g with 15g volume sump and rock in the display, so I'm estimating the actual gallons at maybe 50g (?).

I think I will try TMZs method (thanks, Tom!) after getting the nitrates down to 10ppm with water changes. I will post with my experience with it. Thanks!

Angela

 

[Newreeflady]

I'd try a cup of patience ....

Not my forte Seriously, though, I would prefer to get the nitrates down asap as I don't want them building up in the system somewhere like in the new rock and sand. I intend to have the nitrates below 5ppm within a week.

-A

 

[block head]

getting rid of them is one thing. why are they that high in the first place ? seems a turkey baster and decent wc routine should be able handle 99% of 60 g tank .

 

[Newreeflady]

It's a new tank, and there is stock in it. That should explain why it's high

Thanks for the responses, again, I am definitely trying this as I said in the thread initially- just looking for people's experience with these methods. I know the standard advice, and am foregoing it. Please don't be upset about it, it's just the way it is.

-A

 

[Newreeflady]

double post

 

[tmz]

Good luck with it Angela.

I didn't jump in with vodka/ vinegar until I exhausted other measures but I will be very slow to stop it now. Big system, lots of fish , nitrates go up over time even with excellent husbandry.Still do the standard stuff(water changes, caheto refugia, cleaning , deep sand bed, cryptic zones ,extra rock, gac, some gfo ,etc.).The animals do fine with it. Zoanthus in particular seem to benefit from the bacteria and/ or the acetate. I think it's helpful, if it's done in moderation. Many get impatient and overdose with bacterial blooms and other negative consequences.
25ppm NO3 isn't that high and you may want to hold off a bit but organic carbon dosing along with testing is a useful tool along with good husbandry .BTW it will reduce PO4 too.
Just go slow and pay attention to water changes and exporting the organics via gac and skimming.

 

[cardiffgiant]

Not my forte Seriously, though, I would prefer to get the nitrates down asap as I don't want them building up in the system somewhere like in the new rock and sand. I intend to have the nitrates below 5ppm within a week.

-A

LOL, if patiences isn't your forte, then I'd suggest that you stick with water changes instead of carbon dosing. Carbon dosing is a slow buildup, and moving too quickly is harmful for a system (as I found out last year).

If you want nitrates down to 5ppm in 1 week, carbon dosing won't be your solution.

 

[Newreeflady]

LOL, if patiences isn't your forte, then I'd suggest that you stick with water changes instead of carbon dosing. Carbon dosing is a slow buildup, and moving too quickly is harmful for a system (as I found out last year).

If you want nitrates down to 5ppm in 1 week, carbon dosing won't be your solution.

I've decided to dose the stuff using a peristaltic pump, and will not be going any faster than is recommended by the article I spoke about. (I'm daring, but try to avoid being stupid wherever possible) I will be bringing the nitrates down as much as I can over the next week with water changes, but at the same time am adding chaeto and starting the vodka/vinegar regimen. I've also recently added purigen in addition to GAC. You're right, but although I may not bring the nitrates down to 5ppm in a week, I like to have a goal in mind to keep myself busy with

-A

 

[Newreeflady]

Good luck with it Angela.

I didn't jump in with vodka/ vinegar until I exhausted other measures but I will be very slow to stop it now. Big system, lots of fish , nitrates go up over time even with excellent husbandry.Still do the standard stuff(water changes, caheto refugia, cleaning , deep sand bed, cryptic zones ,extra rock, gac, some gfo ,etc.).The animals do fine with it. Zoanthus in particular seem to benefit from the bacteria and/ or the acetate. I think it's helpful, if it's done in moderation. Many get impatient and overdose with bacterial blooms and other negative consequences.
25ppm NO3 isn't that high and you may want to hold off a bit but organic carbon dosing along with testing is a useful tool along with good husbandry .BTW it will reduce PO4 too.
Just go slow and pay attention to water changes and exporting the organics via gac and skimming.

Will do. I think my skimmer is up to spec- recently added a gate valve, which has really helped me dial it in (can't believe I didn't do this before!) I am actually putting the chaeto in the display as I don't have appropriate refugium lighting right now, so we'll see how that works out. I've got sand for a dsb in there, but because it isn't live sand it's going to take a while to seed. I think I'm going to stir it a little bit here and there every time I do water changes- at least until it seems "live".

Do you change carbon more often while dosing?

Thanks again, appreciate the help!
Angela

 

[tmz]

No change: gac once every 4 weeks; rox 8 @ 1/3 cup per 50 gallons. I use a bag of purigen too.
I dose the vodka and vinegar in bulk. Tried dosing it over 24/7 with kalk and saw some cyano. Pouring it in to a high flow area during photosynthesis works for me.

If the vodka is diluted too much it and the vinegar will be consumed by bacteria before it's dosed . The alcohol preserves the vodka and the low ph preserves the vinegar. Slow dose with kalk preserves them because the high ph stops the bacteria.

 

[Newreeflady]

This is great info. So, I mixed a solution of 0.06 mL Ethanol 200 proof + 0.0025 mL glacial acetic acid per mL DI water- I hope that's not too dilute(?). I'm dosing 1mL per day of this solution. I was going to dilute it and put it on the peristaltic, but after reading your post I just dosed half of it in the a.m. and will put in the other half mL when I get home from work. I am dosing it in the drain compartment of the sump. I have not begun a kalk regimen yet, but will hook up the ATO this weekend with kalk. So, I should not drip that into the same compartment, then? I can drip it into the skimmer compartment or the return compartment- is there a difference?

I saw that you dose kalk for ATO- can you tell me how you're doing this? I was thinking to just always let it top off a sat'd solution- so I'd basically put a great deal of kalk in the top off reservoir with DI, let it settle, check the conductivity. Let the ATO draw the top off water from about 1/3 way up the reservoir. When it gets empty, add more DI, mix, let settle, check conductivity. When the conductivity lowers add more kalk. Is this OK, or do I need to do specific quantities?

Thx!!
Angela

 

[tmz]

OK. so you have the equivalent ethanol of .15ml 80 proof vodka and .05ml white vinegar per ml of solution. Don't know if if will break down . Perhaps keeping it cold would help.
Just to get a comparison: you are dosing .2ml of 80 proof vodka equivalents per 76 gallons of system water or about .0026 ml per gallon. I dose 34 ml of 80 proof vodka equivalents for 550 gallons; about or .062 ml per gallon. That's about 24 times your staring dose. Many dose 2x what I do. You should be quite safe starting at that level but might have to go quite a ways up to see results. Sometimes it takes months to see reduction in NO3.
I also split part of the dose: am;26 ml and pm 8ml.

I prefer to dose kalk from a still reservoir. Ato set ups can be difficult in terms of dosing consistency due to the constant influx of water and/ or stirring of the material in the bottom of the kalk water holding vessel. I fill a 32 gallon brute can with ro; mix in kalk at 2tps per gallon ; let it settle out for at least two hours. This lasts about 7 days on the 550 g system. Some use a 5 gallon bucket for a still reservoir. Anything will do as long as it can be covered. There is no need to seal it , since in a still reservoir limewater doesn't lose any significant strength due to CO2 absorbtion for weeks. If the surface is agitated by a stirrer, pump or inflowing water, obviously more CO2 will enter and precipitate more calcium carbonate. The peri pump intake tube sits a few inches off the bottom. I use a liter meter which allows me to program the number of liters to be dosed over a 24 hour period and then breaks it up via it's internal timer into 150 uniform doses spread evenly over the 24 hours. Some use less expensive peri pumps or diaphram pumps together with multi position digital timers. Some of these timers with 8 or more positions can be had for about $25.

o, I should not drip that into the same compartment, then? I can drip it into the skimmer compartment or the return compartment- is there a difference?

I don't understand the question. If you mean can you dose the kalk and the carbon in the same compartment ,I don't see why not,both are miscible should diffuse pretty quickly probably faster than the water moves and don't affect each other. I probably wouldn't drip the carbon into the skimmer since it needs to diffuse through the tank.I don't think it's skimable but it could possibly quickly form amphipathic organics which are. I dose mine at the drain output which is a short run from the skimmer but not right into it.

 

[Newreeflady]

Hi Tom, thanks for verifying the math for me, and making me feel comfortable with the starting dose. I am guessing the whole point of ramping up is to let the colony build up so that the tank isn't OD'd on vodka?

I'm not sure I'm catching the difference between ATO and a still reservoir. Oh, wait, I think I get it. Because ATO often top up with a real pump, and real pumps agitate the water, that's the issue, right? In my system I use at Tom Aqualifter, which causes no agitation at all and is a super super slow diaphram pump. Only issue is that the evaporation rate changes seasonally, which makes peri pumps sound a little more consistant.

Do you clean out the bottom of the can every time you make a new brute can full of kalk solution, or do you let the residue sit? Do you see any issue with letting it sit in there and just adding more water, kalk? Do you see any issue with adding more kalk than is needed from the get-go, like I mentioned above?

Thanks again for taking the time to help me. Much appreciated
-A

 

[tmz]

I clean the bottom of the can once every 6 mos to a year. The slurry is undissolved kalk and precipitated impurites which won't redisslove. When I add new kalk powder I restir the bottom. I all settles back out in an hour or two.

You are welcome.

 

[tmz]

I'm not sure I'm catching the difference between ATO and a still reservoir. Oh, wait, I think I get it. Because ATO often top up with a real pump, and real pumps agitate the water, that's the issue, right? In my system I use at Tom Aqualifter, which causes no agitation at all and is a super super slow diaphram pump. Only issue is that the evaporation rate changes seasonally, which makes peri pumps sound a little more consistant

That sounds like a "still reservoir" to me. I think of an ato set up as one where a kalk reactor is plugged into an ato line from the ro/di source.