No water change ever again

[Jimmy54]

Well - It seems I comply with the requirements to comment on this.
Without trying to endorse it, I do not perform water-changes and haven't done any for about a year and a half, and so far no visible regression (yet)
Bisides alk, Mg and Ca, you could test - to a certain extend - for elements like iodide/iodate, boron, strontium and potassium,
but you can't for Na, Cl, SO4, amino acids and 98% of the "necessary" trace elements.
IMO; as long as you're not able to get a general overview of what is going on in your tank, regarding all these elements which are just half of the things you should know, one should perform water changes.
As for trace elements, maybe you should look into the RED SEA program.
However, they do recommend water-changes too

Except for phosphate and nitrate control (chelated iron and carbon/ sugar and vinegar) I'm not a fan of DSR as a method because it doesn't allow for ionic balance.
Only time will tell if it'll work for those who are using a calcium reactor and for those who don't and do not perform water-changes.

 

[Aquarist007]

This is the thing to do. I do an automatic 1% daily water change. The only work involved for me is filing the AWC reservoir with new saltwater once a week. And since my 160 gallon new saltwater reservoir is plumbed via PVC pipework to my AWC reservoir, I only have to turn a couple valves once a week. All the work is done by a Masterflex Dual head Peristaltic pump on a timer. Change out the dripsets once every 6 months or so.

That looks expensive....curious how much is that setup

 

[Aquarist007]

Well - It seems I comply with the requirements to comment on this.
Without trying to endorse it, I do not perform water-changes and haven't done any for about a year and a half, and so far no visible regression (yet)
Bisides alk, Mg and Ca, you could test - to a certain extend - for elements like iodide/iodate, boron, strontium and potassium,
but you can't for Na, Cl, SO4, amino acids and 98% of the "necessary" trace elements.
IMO; as long as you're not able to get a general overview of what is going on in your tank, regarding all these elements which are just half of the things you should know, one should perform water changes.
As for trace elements, maybe you should look into the RED SEA program.
However, they do recommend water-changes too

Except for phosphate and nitrate control (chelated iron and carbon/ sugar and vinegar) I'm not a fan of DSR as a method because it doesn't allow for ionic balance.
Only time will tell if it'll work for those who are using a calcium reactor and for those who don't and do not perform water-changes.

What filtration methods are you using and how stocked is your tank

 

[Chrisjbarry]

Just so everyone knows I have been in the hobby for over 15 years now. Done all types of tanks and would never recommend this setup for any new comer or even a person only being in the hobby for a year or three. That said Im trying this method as I know that it can be done with success. Believe me when I say I love this hobby (wife thinks im crazy), also I have been known for taking fish and corals that are dying and bringing them back to life in my tanks. Currently my yellow tangs, blue tang all had ich and hole in head so bad I thought they were going to die over night. About a year later they have no signs of ich or hole in head. This is another method I don't recommend for anyone on how I cured them. I just placed them right in my tank after drip acclimation. I do this knowing it may infect my other fish but setting up a small tank and stressing fish out again is not my cup of tea. Also from what I have seen there is no proof that you can fully kill ich. Just let tank run stress free you will be good. I only treat new fish with Prosipro right before entering my tank for about 30 mins. I have done it this way for ever and only lost 2 fish. One was a target Gobie that I didn't read up on almost 12 years ago. Second was a clown that had some internal worm that ended up showing signs when it was too late to pull him at QT him. Corals all get dipped for bugs and pests, even switching from one tank to another in my house. You never know when a random flat worm could show its self.

Already have a rodi system plumbed to tank including skimmer waste exiting the tank with neck cleaner running 4 times a day. Recommend one of those to everyone. Salt is cheap thats why I have about 1000 gallons worth in the garage still. just like to have automation of tank running on its own with help of Apex. Look at the ocean only thing that is removed is skimate from waves crashing to the beach. I still don't understand how the ocean can get supplements replaced for millions of years. Alk, cal, mag, ect....

 

[LefkoNJ]

I want to see the no water change results at 1 year not 2 months. Growth color etc after this much time will prove whether or not it works. As many others have said a water change is more than removing dirty water.

 

[TellyFish]

This is another method I don't recommend for anyone on how I cured them. I just placed them right in my tank after drip acclimation.

Agreed, please don't recommend that to anyone as a way to cure ich.

I do this knowing it may infect my other fish but setting up a small tank and stressing fish out again is not my cup of tea.

A properly sized quarantine tank is the best/cheapest way to prevent said infection from spreading.

Also from what I have seen there is no proof that you can fully kill ich.

There is a ton of information available on this site and others. You can totally fully kill ich. What makes you think that they cannot be killed? :uzi:

Just let tank run stress free you will be good.

Your current fish may be resistant but that doesn't mean the parasite is absent from the tank.

Corals all get dipped for bugs and pests, even switching from one tank to another in my house. You never know when a random flat worm could show its self.

Agreed, such diligence is required for both corals and fish if you wish to be parasite-free.

Salt is cheap that's why I have about 1000 gallons worth in the garage still.

After reading this thread, I need to go do a water change...

 

[reefwars]

Just so everyone knows I have been in the hobby for over 15 years now. Done all types of tanks and would never recommend this setup for any new comer or even a person only being in the hobby for a year or three. That said Im trying this method as I know that it can be done with success. Believe me when I say I love this hobby (wife thinks im crazy), also I have been known for taking fish and corals that are dying and bringing them back to life in my tanks. Currently my yellow tangs, blue tang all had ich and hole in head so bad I thought they were going to die over night. About a year later they have no signs of ich or hole in head. This is another method I don't recommend for anyone on how I cured them. I just placed them right in my tank after drip acclimation. I do this knowing it may infect my other fish but setting up a small tank and stressing fish out again is not my cup of tea. Also from what I have seen there is no proof that you can fully kill ich. Just let tank run stress free you will be good. I only treat new fish with Prosipro right before entering my tank for about 30 mins. I have done it this way for ever and only lost 2 fish. One was a target Gobie that I didn't read up on almost 12 years ago. Second was a clown that had some internal worm that ended up showing signs when it was too late to pull him at QT him. Corals all get dipped for bugs and pests, even switching from one tank to another in my house. You never know when a random flat worm could show its self.

Already have a rodi system plumbed to tank including skimmer waste exiting the tank with neck cleaner running 4 times a day. Recommend one of those to everyone. Salt is cheap thats why I have about 1000 gallons worth in the garage still. just like to have automation of tank running on its own with help of Apex. Look at the ocean only thing that is removed is skimate from waves crashing to the beach. I still don't understand how the ocean can get supplements replaced for millions of years. Alk, cal, mag, ect....

There are so.many things wrong with this post that I'll just comment on the one that bugs me the most lol

You can't fully kill ich? My friend if it lives it dies.... there are numerous studies showing that can indeed die and does so.

It's one of the most studied parasites in marine fish and there's no lack of knowledge on the topic.....a healthy system is not a guarantee.

 

[h2hiero]

Look at the ocean only thing that is removed is skimate from waves crashing to the beach. I still don't understand how the ocean can get supplements replaced for millions of years. Alk, cal, mag, ect....

I think the cracks in the earths crust from the volcanic activity replaces the supplements with all the gases that are constantly spilling up. The ocean varies and the alk, cal , mag changes depending where in the ocean you are.

 

[gone fishin]

I think the cracks in the earths crust from the volcanic activity replaces the supplements with all the gases that are constantly spilling up. The ocean varies and the alk, cal , mag changes depending where in the ocean you are.

That's why I only use ice cores from Antarctica for my top offs. Things grew so big a million or so years ago. The water must be better, full of all kinds of trace elements an minerals.

 

[h2hiero]

That's why I only use ice cores from Antarctica for my top offs. Things grew so big a million or so years ago. The water must be better, full of all kinds of trace elements an minerals.

I would not recommend that because salt is still trapped in the seawater as it freezes. Your tanks salinity would skyrocket.

 

[Chrisjbarry]

Reefwars
I just talked to Kevin Kohen at live aquaria last week about this topic. They stated that it would almost take 10 QT tank switches to fully remove ich. Now the theory here is that you treat tank A with copper place fish in it for around 24-48 hours. Take new tank B treated with copper. Now in the next 24-48 hours fully clean tank A. Repeat process for about 10 swaps. The reason is you cant fully kill each stage of ich at the same time with the same method. Ich lives on all live rock you bring in as well as frags you get from say most tanks in the hobby. Its stress that will flair up signs of it on your fish.

Now if you have an arrival where they can show the true science behind killing the ich I would love to see it.

 

[Chrisjbarry]

Tellyfish
Never said it was killed just that it is an easy way to keep fish happy and keep ich at bay.

 

[frogdog]

Regarding ich, here are two entries from Snorvich's blog, parts 1 and 2. Great reading, with all the relevant references.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/blog.php?b=289

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/blog.php?b=312

 

[tmz]

Ok no water changes, no quarantine.Too many surgeon fish including a known fish shredder that needs plenty of swimming room and a much bigger tank with sturdy tankmates. Serious stress there. Bet you don't even know which one it is .
Any other gems of wisdom?
Really bad information and opinion posing as fact is what I've read with an effort to claim auathority bsed on a claim of years of experience and some name droppping without context.

Randy handled water changes very well,no need to say more .

There are hundreds of scientific papers on ich but I'm sure you'll dismiss them as you have dismissed top notch advice and comment so far regarding water changes. So, I'm not going to waste my time arguing that with you; it would be boring and pointless.


I can only advise people not to follow any advice or opinion offered since they are likely to cause harm. I'd personally use the ignore feature but someone needs to correct some of this stuff.

Even though the subject of this thread is not cryptocaryon irritans, it's been introduced apparently to change the subject since there is nothing offered in defense of no water changes;so ,some folks may find this thread of interest along with a visit to the fish disease forum if they want helpful information on ich , fish acclimation and quarantine :

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2185929&highlight=fish+acclimation+and+quarantine

 

[AcroporAddict]

That looks expensive....curious how much is that setup

Bought used off eBay for $225. That was the pump and the dual heads. Masterflex pumps are built for lab and industrial use. Even used they are overbuilt for Reefer needs. This setup would probably be $1200+ if bought new. If you are interested in getting one, be prepared to scan eBay every day for a couple weeks, as bargains pop up. I have seen this same type setup list for $500 as well as the $225 I paid. I have three in operation. One feeds my sulfur denitrator, got it for $150 off eBay, and a high zoot digital drive one feeds my calcium reactor. Got it new about two years ago at a great price from tkeracer619. Here is a thread dedicated to Masterflex pumps. Lot of good info in there.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2368618

 

[TellyFish]

They stated that it would almost take 10 QT tank switches to fully remove ich.

The transfer method works if done correctly, and so do copper and hyposalinity treatments. Those are the only three I am aware of. There is not really a need to combine methods, again, that I am aware of.

The reason is you cant fully kill each stage of ich at the same time with the same method.

This is absolutely true. That is why it is important to maintain proper treatment length or it will be ineffective and you will not kill the ich.

Ich lives on all live rock you bring in as well as frags you get from say most tanks in the hobby.

Again, dead on. You seem to have accurate information, its the conclusions that seem suspect: "A good biosecurity program, developed with the assistance of a fish health specialist, will include quarantine of new fish (Yanong 2009)." Quarantine marine plants, invertebrates (including shrimp, clams, corals, live rock), tank substrate, and other materials that may have been exposed to infected fish and/or harbor tomonts (reproductive, encysted stages) before introducing them into a system. Any used equipment or tanks should be properly disinfected prior to reuse. http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164

Now if you have an arrival where they can show the true science behind killing the ich I would love to see it

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa165

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I still don't understand how the ocean can get supplements replaced for millions of years. Alk, cal, mag, ect....

It is easy to explain if you ask. There are several ways.

Calcium carbonate dissolves in very deep ocean water due to the pressure, so solids settling deep will redissolve that way.

The other obvious way is river input from weathering of rocks.

There is a long discussion of this process in chemical oceanography books. Apparently, some guy a long time ago tried to determine how old the earth was by adding up the river inputs and comparing it to ions in the ocean today. He was way off (too young), partly because he didn't recognize the sinks for ions, which include calcium/magnesium carbonate precipitation.

And yes, vents do also add ions to the water.

 

[Comedy Fish]

Imagine living in an outhouse with no air or ventilation. Water changes would be equivalent to a breath of fresh air. They are essential for animal husbandry IMO.

 

[bdsage]

Does any one know how june 2012 totm is doing currently since at that time he stated he had not done a water change in 3yrs.-8mons.?

 

[leveldrummer]

Already have a rodi system plumbed to tank including skimmer waste exiting the tank with neck cleaner running 4 times a day. Recommend one of those to everyone. Salt is cheap thats why I have about 1000 gallons worth in the garage still. just like to have automation of tank running on its own with help of Apex. Look at the ocean only thing that is removed is skimate from waves crashing to the beach. I still don't understand how the ocean can get supplements replaced for millions of years. Alk, cal, mag, ect....

I gotta tell ya, this is an absolute recipe for disaster!!! If your skimmer overflows one day (they all do, they always do) your ro/di is just gonna keep on pumping, this is how you crash a tank. Do not recommend one of these to everyone.

Oceans done remove skimate from waves, oceans are massive, extremely complex systems, you do not have an ocean in your home, you can not get anywhere close to replicating an ocean. You said your tank is 6 months old, and you havent dont a water change in 2 months, good luck, it will work for a while, but not for ever.