Nurse Sharks in the Aquarium trade

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Fish to have rights!? Sounds like a "Fish's Life" to me....ridiculous.

However I do agree that some species should require some sort of permit to own; or not be available for sale at all. But, you must be very careful in what you allow the government to regulate, they're not very good at that sort of thing. Things tend to get more messed up the more they have control over.

Then as far as the permit goes, who's gonna do the inspection? Who's gonna pay their salary and benefits? Who's gonna collect the permit fee? Who's gonna make sure that you don't sell your 500 gal tank, downgrade to a 125 and keep your shark?

It won't work. Government needs to stay out of my business; They have plenty of their own to swim in.
I'm a HUGE anti government states rights guy but sometimes you have to save people from themselves. I see a nurse shark in a LFS I call the owner a fool to his face and walk out! I let my wallet speak. Its a shame thats all. Its like people owning a Chimpanze. I live close to the lady who got her face ripped off. It wasn't her Chimp further illustrating my point. I guess when someone's 3 yr old jumps in a shark tank and gets eaten there will be a law. See I'm all for common sense but I see so little of it. I'm also not a big slippery slope guy...Like ok you need a permit for sharks....oh no the Senator taking Sierra Club kick back snuck in the Shark bill a clause outlawing Tang collection and importation because the decreased Tang population in New Guinea is causing an algae bloom suffocating the reef....there ya go no mo Tangs.....lol......OK I'M WITH YA.......Although I would love life long pension benefits with non contributory lifetime medical that I would collectively bargin for as a full time member of the local Shark Inspectors Union. We would pay for my benefits by having a "reef tax" which you would pay. ALL tanks, fish, skimmers lights etc would have this tax. And hey if you have a 500 gallon and down size and I catch you....we could work something out...I'm sure......lol
 
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Hi all,
I'd like to share an article that got published in Maryland just this weekend. I really think that this Marine Rescue Center is onto something good here and Im curious as to what others will think about it.

They are lobbying this thursday in Annapolis to stop the sale of Nurse sharks into pet stores as well as other large species that reach greater than 3-4 feet or so. They also express in the article they're desire for fish to have rights. Please read this article and post your opinions! I'm sure you will find this to be interesting. Also be sure to check out the video.

I've posted the link below

http://www.mdgazette.com/content/love-sharks
My Company has an office in Glenn Burnie I'm going to pay these guys a visit. I'm in marketing I would like to help them find a voice! Thanks for the post.
 
I'm a HUGE anti government states rights guy but sometimes you have to save people from themselves. I see a nurse shark in a LFS I call the owner a fool to his face and walk out! I let my wallet speak. Its a shame thats all. Its like people owning a Chimpanze. I live close to the lady who got her face ripped off. It wasn't her Chimp further illustrating my point. I guess when someone's 3 yr old jumps in a shark tank and gets eaten there will be a law. See I'm all for common sense but I see so little of it. I'm also not a big slippery slope guy...Like ok you need a permit for sharks....oh no the Senator taking Sierra Club kick back snuck in the Shark bill a clause outlawing Tang collection and importation because the decreased Tang population in New Guinea is causing an algae bloom suffocating the reef....there ya go no mo Tangs.....lol......OK I'M WITH YA.......Although I would love life long pension benefits with non contributory lifetime medical that I would collectively bargin for as a full time member of the local Shark Inspectors Union. We would pay for my benefits by having a "reef tax" which you would pay. ALL tanks, fish, skimmers lights etc would have this tax. And hey if you have a 500 gallon and down size and I catch you....we could work something out...I'm sure......lol

People stupid enough that they need to be saved from themselves generally aren't worth the effort required to save them, and the salvation becomes a stone around the necks of those not stupid enough to need it.
 
My Company has an office in Glenn Burnie I'm going to pay these guys a visit. I'm in marketing I would like to help them find a voice! Thanks for the post.

Awesome! Thank you so much. They were just on channel 11 news last night, so luckily the word is getting around. makes me very happy to see this. Definitely pay them a visit!
 
I also think that a fish "bill of rights" is going one step too far. But making people get permits won't cut it either. I think what needs to happen is for those species to stop being traded, plain and simple, large sharks and rays should not be in the aquarium trade, they already have too many problems to deal with. The only people allowed to get them alive should be those that run public aquaria.

As far as leaving the government out of our business, if not the government, who else will do it? I am willing to bet how much ever you want that if the government stopped restrictions on the wild animal trade from Africa there would be thousands of people lining up to try to keep lions as pets or just buy elephant tusks. I am sorry but some things have to be controlled by official authorities, and in our case that means the government, not everything can be self-regulated.

I've been to public aquariums that should have their live stock uthanized so it shouldn't be an automatic thing that they should be the "elite" that gets live stock that no one else can have. To my mind, what's important is to have access to livestock for people that can demonstrate proper husbandry and to have a "review" clause in any legislation that gets passed for regulation of live stock.

For instance, a few decades ago it was thought that marines only breed true but look what has happenrd to aquacultured clown fish. Who's to say that some aquarist that is insane about nurse sharks couldn't breed a "pygmy" version down the road? If we ban everyone from certain live stock we may never know what's possible.

We should not be driven by emotion alone when we decide to call for this or that legislation and I think that is what is happening here.
 
People stupid enough that they need to be saved from themselves generally aren't worth the effort required to save them, and the salvation becomes a stone around the necks of those not stupid enough to need it.
I couldn't have said it better myself! just sayin................
 
I've been to public aquariums that should have their live stock uthanized so it shouldn't be an automatic thing that they should be the "elite" that gets live stock that no one else can have. To my mind, what's important is to have access to livestock for people that can demonstrate proper husbandry and to have a "review" clause in any legislation that gets passed for regulation of live stock.

Swim, this is a good point and one thing that I forgot to mention is that Sea Save is very much against the lack of responsibility that the aquariums take. They are aware of how many fish and sharks that the aquariums go through. They have proof of the pallets and pallets full replacement fish that get shipped to certain aquariums. One of their pet peeves is that the aquariums should be held to a higher standard. People shouldn't waste their money to support aquariums that claim to be doing rehabilitation when really all they are is a HUGE killing machine. They have the answer to making this better though! To bad as of right now the aquarium isn't listening... why? because it bothers them that someone is coming in and pointing out all their faults. Its too bad they won't listen, because they would save a lot of money if they didnt have to order in new fish every month because they don't know how to keep them alive.

Did you know that this aquarium in particular has a separate building FULL of FISH that they have as a back for when they start loosing fish from their exhibits? Isn't this rediculous? That an aquarium is killing that many fish? It goes back to the wholesalers that provide these fish to the aquariums, they still all have that fundamental flaw of chemically treating all the fish and thats why the fish are dying. The aquarium also chemically treats their fish ontop of all the chemicals they've been hit with from the wholesaler. These idiots have been doing this for YEARS. They don't realize that the chemicals are bad. Or maybe they do? And they do it on purpose so they can continue to sell and make more of a profit. Either way its messed up.

Read here... http://www.seasave.net/NATIONAL_FISH.html
The article focuses on the faults of our local aquarium in particular.
 
so lets get this straight.
if i had a 50,000 gallon aquarium you guys think i shouldnt be able to get a shark and that they should be banned?
gosh perhaps you guys should really start rethinking your hobbys/interests.
i dont support any ban on anything period!
in the end that word shark will get hashed out and replaced with marine fish just that easy!
when will the public really start observing the real ways of their government.
 
IMO we really don't need any more laws!!! Just like with seat belts and cell phones... EDUCATION IS KEY!!! I don't want anything BANDED!!! Most people cant care for a fish thats 40" 's long let alone 14'... But some people can... LFS just need to ask the right questions. "How big is your tank?" "It's um... 210gal" "Oh, a Nurse is probably not right for you, how about a Banded Cat, or smooth hound?" It's simple.

But is it just me, or does this entire forum focus more and more on Nurse sharks and not the idea that someone is out there trying to help? I bet most LFS will take any fish if you call and ask. My old LFS took my entire setup when i moved once before. There are plenty of large fish available to the trade...

There is an old saying that "We learn from our mistakes" and IMHO not everyone learns from OTHER PEOPLES MISTAKES!!! Sometimes people just need to do things for themselves.. If you want to buy a $200 fish and kill it... Thats not the greatest thing in the world... But to that same effect... Is the life of a $200 fish account for something greated than that of a $0.10 feeder? If all life is sacred then it shouldn't matter what a person buys... It should matter how they care for it. And to that respect, a 7year old who just got a new tank for Christmas will mostly likely kill a few fish before they get the hang if it... But this is acceptable. If I had a store and a 7 year old walked in with $200 buck and PROOF of a tank the right size... I'D SELL THEM A FISH!!!!
 
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http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1976262

Another copy of the same thread... but it's also got the background on the people behind all this as well too. Things aren't all peachy in OZ that's for sure with this group, and in the other thread he's already threatening nano owners

Yeah... If anyone wants to read that thread and see that these were both started by a shill of Sea Save then you'll probably save yourself some time before arguing with people that have the agenda of shadily promoting their store.

dread240 said:
Here's even more fun and some background information on this, because I remembered looking up some information on them so that I could in fact deal with a reputable place (which in all honesty came up after I talked with him)

Here's some reviews on sea save and how they act.

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/states/md.html
A few very short reviews, but one nice story about their ordering shipments and all way before they went the 'conservation route' they tote now.

Here's their yellowbot reviews
http://www.yellowbot.com/sea-save-inc-burnie-md.html

Here's Sea Save's review of Yellowbot ROTFLOL
http://www.insiderpages.com/b/152401...ide-pleasanton
(seriously... child pornography is on the same scale as you receiving bad reviews time and time again?)

http://www.openlist.com/glen-burnie-...-inc/37379453/
Hey look 4 stars!... oh wait... 2 of the 5 star reviews are them... 2 regular users putting them at 1 star and only 1 REAL good review...

Now can you seriously, seriously still believe everything they tell you? Sure people on here might be oblivious to what is really going on with this place, but I can assure you that I'm not.

Thanks for posting these links but the bottom two didn't work, do you have the full url's to them? Now I know where to leave reviews regarding this place shilling websites to promote themselves, as well as my opinions on their "shark tank" that's appallingly small for all the "saving" and "caring" they're pretending to do.
 
sorry about that... It apparently truncated the url

http://www.insiderpages.com/b/15240163977/local-seo-guide-pleasanton
That's the child pornography comment written by sea save themselves... 2nd one down
(you'll notice this on the review of a SEO operation... nothing related to the marine aquarium industry at all... they spammed their message across multiple companies insider pages with 1 star reviews promoting their message....)

http://www.openlist.com/glen-burnie-md/sea-save-inc/37379453/
That's the one where the only good reviews are from sea save themselves...

There's also a bunch more floating around about yellowpages and how they deleted their good reviews... however it was most likely posted by them and they saw duplicate ip addresses like most FULLY SCRIPTED sites do.... but no... it's a vendetta against them brought up by the other local fish stores and same reason he wears a tinfoil hat everywhere he goes
 
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People stupid enough that they need to be saved from themselves generally aren't worth the effort required to save them, and the salvation becomes a stone around the necks of those not stupid enough to need it.
I'm not worried about saving the people- I'm worried about the sharks. I can't think of any good justification for why these people should be allowed to condemn them to a cruel death for their own enjoyment.

As far as being a stone around the necks of those not stupid enough to need it, that sounds great, but who are those people? If you're not dumb enough to want a nurse shark in your tank, a ban on their sales has no effect on you. If you want a nurse shark and do have a large enough tank to keep them, you would be affected, but can you point to even a single example of such a hobbyist? In 10 years in the hobby I've never seen an example of such a system online or in person. I never came across one in the course of doing tank services, though I saw a lot of tanks with nurse sharks in them. I never had any retail customers with a system like that, though a lot of them asked if we could get them nurse sharks. No one in the other thread on the subject could point out an example either. I don't doubt that somewhere out there someone has a suitable tank, but I don't really think those one or two people who can properly provide for these animals justify hundreds of them being collected and sold every year.
 
if i had a 50,000 gallon aquarium you guys think i shouldnt be able to get a shark and that they should be banned?
That's a nonsensical question. Can you point out a single example of a hobbyist with a 50,000 gallon aquarium? Hell, Scott Michael recommends a minimum tank size of only 4,800 gallons for them. Can you point to a hobbyist with a tank even that big (with appropriate horizontal dimensions)?

If 50,000 gallon, 10x20 ft tanks were common in the trade, this wouldn't be an issue, but they're not. Nurse sharks on the other hand, are.

Most people cant care for a fish thats 40" 's long let alone 14'... But some people can.
Example?

I bet most LFS will take any fish if you call and ask.
Most won't take nurse sharks. Most public aquariums or research institutions won't take them either. They're too big and there are too many irresponsible owners who try to unload them when they outgrow their tanks. It's no different than buying a baby python and assuming that a zoo or pet shop will take it when it gets too big for you to care for it.

There are plenty of large fish available to the trade...
And none of them grow longer than standard tanks and are regularly stocked by wholesalers. Wobbegongs, black tips, leopard sharks, barracudas, and some of the largest eels are about the only ones in the hobby that physically grow longer than a 6 ft tank, and all of those would usually only be available by special request. Nurse sharks reach adult size at over 9 feet and are regularly available from most big wholesalers.

Yes, there are lots of other big fish in the hobby that arguably get too large to be kept happy, but their adult size isn't larger than the tank itself, which is the primary reason for singling out nurse sharks.

"How big is your tank?" "It's um... 210gal" "Oh, a Nurse is probably not right for you, how about a Banded Cat, or smooth hound?" It's simple.
Sure, it's that simple in a perfect world where everyone is responsible, honest, and ethical all the time. If we lived in that world animals would never be abused and we would have no need for any laws about fraud or theft either. But we live in the real world where people do abuse and neglect their animals and where shop employees regularly sell people animals they know they have no business buying in order to make a quick buck.

whos the only ones they WON'T Regulate... NON-PROFITS!!!!! Like the National Aquariums... They will still be free to kill "PALLETS" of fish and won't suffer at all
Commercial and public aquariums are already regulated through the AZA.

More Taxes to pay the lazy goverment employee who's job it is to TAX and REGULATE my FISH!
Huh? No one is proposing any taxation. The government already does inspections for trade in restricted species at wholesalers and retailers. Adding one more species to that list doesn't add any administrative or enforcement cost.
 
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There is always issues in regards to the treatment of animals, however I for one hope this fiasco started by these 2 is over at this point and she slips back into her avoiding reefcentral for 4 years like she did prior to this. Literally nothing at all contributed to this forum and then takes the bait set by seasave to come spam the forum for their cause and to bring awareness about his store.
 
That's a nonsensical question. Can you point out a single example of a hobbyist with a 50,000 gallon aquarium? Hell, Scott Michael recommends a minimum tank size of only 4,800 gallons for them. Can you point to a hobbyist with a tank even that big (with appropriate horizontal dimensions)?

your missing the point in my post. its very possible infact for an individual to have an aquarium that big. extreme yes, but there is ppl out there that could get one.
should that person have the right to put one in their tank if they see fit? yes!

if i could afford a tank that big i would have it. surely someone with a tank that large isnt going to be wasting their time posting on a forum about it. just when was the last time you seen a multimillionare on a forum? heck i bet most of them dont even go to the grocery store!


its no different than any normal person with a clownfish in a nano other than size.
should that person be able to get a clownfish then?

and infact being that if there was a ban it wouldnt do crap to these aquariums just look at the other animals that are in fact banned. heck most zoos have more cities title 1 animals than alot of countries have! and also you can bet your yearly wage that any ban would not only list sharks or even really large fish.... they have already tried it to sneak the ALL imported animal ban bill through under hr669
 
I find it rather amusing that alot of people here don't believe that a human has the right to dictate the course of a shark's life, yet they have no problem dictating the course of the lives of other humans who don't agree with them. Very consistent!
 
Yes, I consistently believe that humans should not be allowed to torture other animals, including humans. Telling someone that they cannot own a particular species is hardly torture.
 
In the 20 years of saltwater I have seen one store bring in a Nurse Shark and sell it. After a few months the owner brought it back and the store owner kept it in a 600 gallon and then set up a pool in his store. I don't know what happened to it after that? Maybe he took it home and ate it? In saying that I have never seen another one brought into a store here in San Antonio because store owners know what is going to happen. So why did this subject come up why do we need to have another law to cover something we already know won't work? Remember years ago tiger sharks where a bidg deal, that didn't last very long! You can write laws all day long and the same people will continue to break them. Look at the drug problem we have, how is that law working. Gentlemen we can all agree or disagree on this new law but at the end of the day we need to regulate ourselves and keep uncle sam out of it because the government doesn't use common sense, they won't just ban one species, they will ban them all.
 
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