Nurse Sharks in the Aquarium trade

[greenbean36191]

your missing the point in my post. its very possible infact for an individual to have an aquarium that big. extreme yes, but there is ppl out there that could get one.
should that person have the right to put one in their tank if they see fit? yes!

It's also very possible for someone to build a 3 million gallon tank that's suitable for a whale shark or a manta ray. Has any hobbyist ever done it? No. Does that mean we should start bringing whale sharks and manta rays into the trade, just in case someone does build such a tank?

Laws are made based on what happens in the real world, not what could happen in some hypothetical world where people actually build huge tanks like that and LFS all refuse to sell people animals that are unsuited to their tanks. In the real world there are hundreds of nurse sharks sold every year and so far no one has even come up with a single example of one that has gone to a hobbyist who could care for it.

surely someone with a tank that large isnt going to be wasting their time posting on a forum about it. just when was the last time you seen a multimillionare on a forum?

If you had a tank that size, it wouldn't be a secret, even if you didn't post on forums. You would still have to buy supplies to take care of the tank and hire someone to help you care for it. Other people who are in the industry and who talk to each other, including on forums, would know.

Still no one even seems to know of a friend of a friend, or to have heard rumors about some guy with a tank like this.

its no different than any normal person with a clownfish in a nano other than size.
should that person be able to get a clownfish then?

If nanos were the biggest tanks regularly available in the hobby and they were all smaller than the adult size of clownfish, then no, you shouldn't be able to walk into an LFS and buy a clownfish- otherwise it's a failed comparison.

If a few people occasionally make a stupid decision and put a clownfish in a tiny tank where it has no chance, that doesn't justify banning clownfish for all of the thousands of people who put them in larger tanks. The trade in nurse sharks is almost the exact opposite though. Hundreds of them a year are collected for people who have tanks that are too small for them to have any chance of reaching adulthood, while only a very small handful, if any, ever make it into tanks that can support their adult size.

 

[nixer]

It's also very possible for someone to build a 3 million gallon tank that's suitable for a whale shark or a manta ray. Has any hobbyist ever done it? No. Does that mean we should start bringing whale sharks and manta rays into the trade, just in case someone does build such a tank?

Laws are made based on what happens in the real world, not what could happen in some hypothetical world where people actually build huge tanks like that and LFS all refuse to sell people animals that are unsuited to their tanks. In the real world there are hundreds of nurse sharks sold every year and so far no one has even come up with a single example of one that has gone to a hobbyist who could care for it.


If you had a tank that size, it wouldn't be a secret, even if you didn't post on forums. You would still have to buy supplies to take care of the tank and hire someone to help you care for it. Other people who are in the industry and who talk to each other, including on forums, would know.

Still no one even seems to know of a friend of a friend, or to have heard rumors about some guy with a tank like this.


If nanos were the biggest tanks regularly available in the hobby and they were all smaller than the adult size of clownfish, then no, you shouldn't be able to walk into an LFS and buy a clownfish- otherwise it's a failed comparison.

If a few people occasionally make a stupid decision and put a clownfish in a tiny tank where it has no chance, that doesn't justify banning clownfish for all of the thousands of people who put them in larger tanks. The trade in nurse sharks is almost the exact opposite though. Hundreds of them a year are collected for people who have tanks that are too small for them to have any chance of reaching adulthood, while only a very small handful, if any, ever make it into tanks that can support their adult size.

whales and manta rays are infact brought in yet there is laws against it its called cities! yet those dont apply to zoos, aquariums, and scientific facilities. if you could care for them properly why shouldnt you beable to have them? surely it would see better care than at any of the forementioned facilities.
laws in the real world are not based on whats really happened.
if they were you wouldnt have deer kill limits based upon insurance claims.
if they were passed as you say they wouldnt be based on an estimated climate models (which is b.s)
seatbelt laws were passed based on an insurance companys views.
the assault weapon ban was passed not based upon fact. at that time less than 1% of all gun crimes were an assault weapon used.
the list goes on. laws are not passed on what already happened atleast 99% of the time. i dont believe you have ever even read half of the bills that are inacted and their contents. do you know where to find such information or even read them?



it most certainly could because i dont think they would be buying salt from drfoster or any other vendor. they would be surely getting them direct or even at wholesale. i could be very well cared for by very few ppl especially considering that the owner obviously would not be working if they had that kinda loot. perhaps their version of fun in caring for their tank. just like many other individuals enjoy spending time with their tank. if you could sit at home scuba diving in your fish tank why would you want to go to a 3rd world country.

so millions of praying mantis are sold yet you dont see ppl keeping them?
thats no different than saying god doesnt exsist because you have not seen him/her.


so its ok in your world its ok to. why wouldnt it justify banning clownfish? with your statements that its alright to ban something because they are not all cared for properly for. that wouldnt be any different.

 

[nixer]

I find it rather amusing that alot of people here don't believe that a human has the right to dictate the course of a shark's life, yet they have no problem dictating the course of the lives of other humans who don't agree with them. Very consistent!

yes thats a good point to bring up.
i still cant get over the right to live arguement.
i even asked my representative if you have a right to live do you have a right to die?
i still have yet to get an actual answer on that.
but thats just a small example of things they are not willing to answer.

 

[jmchzn123]

WOW quite a thread. Education is key. Cruelty to animals not cool. Regulation bad for the most part. This issue is decided for us the minute a 3 yr old jumps in a shark tank and gets eaten....then the wheels of tyranny are set in motion. lol......just saying

 

[Swim]

WOW quite a thread. Education is key. Cruelty to animals not cool. Regulation bad for the most part. This issue is decided for us the minute a 3 yr old jumps in a shark tank and gets eaten....then the wheels of tyranny are set in motion. lol......just saying

Welp, even a soft tyranny is no laughing matter. First they came for the people with nurse sharks then they came for you.

 

[alton]

I messed up I meant Leopard not Tiger sharks.

 

[Cerastes]

It's also very possible for someone to build a 3 million gallon tank that's suitable for a whale shark or a manta ray. Has any hobbyist ever done it? No. Does that mean we should start bringing whale sharks and manta rays into the trade, just in case someone does build such a tank?

Laws are made based on what happens in the real world, not what could happen in some hypothetical world where people actually build huge tanks like that and LFS all refuse to sell people animals that are unsuited to their tanks. In the real world there are hundreds of nurse sharks sold every year and so far no one has even come up with a single example of one that has gone to a hobbyist who could care for it.


If you had a tank that size, it wouldn't be a secret, even if you didn't post on forums. You would still have to buy supplies to take care of the tank and hire someone to help you care for it. Other people who are in the industry and who talk to each other, including on forums, would know.

Still no one even seems to know of a friend of a friend, or to have heard rumors about some guy with a tank like this.


If nanos were the biggest tanks regularly available in the hobby and they were all smaller than the adult size of clownfish, then no, you shouldn't be able to walk into an LFS and buy a clownfish- otherwise it's a failed comparison.

If a few people occasionally make a stupid decision and put a clownfish in a tiny tank where it has no chance, that doesn't justify banning clownfish for all of the thousands of people who put them in larger tanks. The trade in nurse sharks is almost the exact opposite though. Hundreds of them a year are collected for people who have tanks that are too small for them to have any chance of reaching adulthood, while only a very small handful, if any, ever make it into tanks that can support their adult size.

The purpose of laws is to protect rights. Since animals can be bought and sold legally, legally they do not possess the right to self-determination. Since the right to self determination is the fundamental right from which all other rights are derived, denying that right and then attempting to grant other rights is inconsistent. People however do possess rights, including the right to buy and sell animals. That which is bought and sold is legally defined as property and there are rights pertaining to that as well. People who want to grant animals rights realy just want to impose their beliefs on others and feel superior to them. More power to y'all, but I'll keep doing as I please with my property, and keep defending your rights to do the same with yours.

 

[organism]

Welp, even a soft tyranny is no laughing matter. First they came for the people with nurse sharks then they came for you.

At least someone on here's got their head on straight. So easy to forget that when you want to ban something someone else is legally doing, someone is just as passionate about banning something you're doing. We're all someone else to someone else.

"oh no, but my point of view is different because"

No it's not. It just seems that way because you're the one thinking it. If you want to ban some species in this hobby because of the idiocy of the end user, don't forget that the guy behind you in line wants to ban all tangs because a lot of people put them in 20 gallon tanks, and the guy behind him wants to ban all fish and corals because he doesn't think they should be taken from the ocean.

 

[organism]

sorry about that... It apparently truncated the url

http://www.insiderpages.com/b/15240163977/local-seo-guide-pleasanton
That's the child pornography comment written by sea save themselves... 2nd one down
(you'll notice this on the review of a SEO operation... nothing related to the marine aquarium industry at all... they spammed their message across multiple companies insider pages with 1 star reviews promoting their message....)

http://www.openlist.com/glen-burnie-md/sea-save-inc/37379453/
That's the one where the only good reviews are from sea save themselves...

There's also a bunch more floating around about yellowpages and how they deleted their good reviews... however it was most likely posted by them and they saw duplicate ip addresses like most FULLY SCRIPTED sites do.... but no... it's a vendetta against them brought up by the other local fish stores and same reason he wears a tinfoil hat everywhere he goes

Nice, good to see what kind of people started this trainwreck just to spam their company.

 

[organism]

I think this infomercial review on insider pages is my favorite, especially the "their aptiasia is not aiptasia" comment... And look, it was posted by someone in the same zip code as the store, these people really have no shame.

http://www.insiderpages.com/b/15239913614/sea-save-inc-mauldin

 

[dread240]

I think this infomercial review on insider pages is my favorite, especially the "their aptiasia is not aiptasia" comment... And look, it was posted by someone in the same zip code as the store, these people really have no shame.

http://www.insiderpages.com/b/15239913614/sea-save-inc-mauldin

I bought a really nice powder brown tang today from the House of Tropicals... err house of death as those guys call it... i also was kind enough to inform the owners of what this guy has been doing all along, even gave them the links to both threads where he's slandering them on a public forum...

Hopefully we can get another deformation of character incident going! I love it when characters get deformed, they're so unformed like afterwards

 

[billsreef]

Commercial and public aquariums are already regulated through the AZA.

Only in the case of facilities that choose to be members of the AZA. One of the best run public aquariums I know is not an AZA member

BTW, I also agree that Nurse Sharks, and other large sharks and fish have no business being readily available in the trade.

I also think any outfit that makes all the claims that Sea Saves makes about the industry and hobby in general, and proceeds to have "bag sales" and in general make the steady wholesale orders required to able to special order any fish, is highly hypercritical....they are saying one thing, and then directly proceeding to do exactly the opposite

 

[billsreef]

BTW, since this thread was started by someone at the request of a specific shop, it's probably best I close it.