Open letter to the LED industry

[wayne in norway]

I assume are's cube is on saltvannsforum. I will look for it, but am wary of the name - t5 spectra are far from full

 

[Vannpytt]

I assume are's cube is on saltvannsforum. I will look for it, but am wary of the name - t5 spectra are far from full

Yeah, take a look. Beat's more or less everything I've seen on any forum. It's quite old, so you would have to dig a bit on the members aquarium subforum.

 

[jda]

Gee there are many threads here that show LEDs work WITH PICTURES. Do you not have members in your reef club that you can visit.

Some people you just need to take to the moon to prove we were there!

I have seen them, and not just locally. There are about 30-40 tanks nationally that I would trade mine for, or aspire to be like, and none of them use LED. They don't work for what I want or any of the people that I trade and buy/sell from nationally.

I did see a fantastic chalice and acan tank under LED - if I was into those, I would aspire to be like that one.

I spent money and lost of tank-time on three high end LED fixtures and was extremely disappointed - I have more experience with this than most.

It is true that I don't care much for pictures on the net. If somebody has the ability send me raw files, then I really like to take a look, but this is asking a lot. Take most of the photos on the net and put them in lightroom or photoshop and take a look at how "off" they are (this is even harder without raw files) - you can also see it in the photos themselves more of the time. This is not purposeful in most cases, it is really hard to take good pictures of reef tanks. This is one of the reasons that I don't post a lot of pictures myself, but my house is open to anybody coming through Denver to stop and have a look.

Since there is not any chance of derailing this thread any further, here are some of the few shots that I took, on our local board:
http://www.marinecolorado.org/forums/showthread.php?20218-Tank-Firecrackers
http://www.marinecolorado.org/forums/showthread.php?18214-Got-the-Camera-Out

 

[patchesj]

I'm confused on what the goal of lighting actually is, now that I've read all 6 pages of this... Do you want to: 1. Replicate what the corals have in nature, 2. Provide light for best growth, or 3. Provide light that is more pleasing to the human eye/produces flashier colors? These are very different objectives and in many (if not all) cases are not simultaneously achievable. IMO, the benefit to LED is that you can generally tweak a single fixture for all 3. Of course, you can't switch back and forth whenever you feel like it without massively impacting your corals, but at least you can slightly modify the outputs to match your personal approach.

 

[Ron Reefman]

I'm confused on what the goal of lighting actually is, now that I've read all 6 pages of this... Do you want to: 1. Replicate what the corals have in nature, 2. Provide light for best growth, or 3. Provide light that is more pleasing to the human eye/produces flashier colors? These are very different objectives and in many (if not all) cases are not simultaneously achievable. IMO, the benefit to LED is that you can generally tweak a single fixture for all 3. Of course, you can't switch back and forth whenever you feel like it without massively impacting your corals, but at least you can slightly modify the outputs to match your personal approach.

And even that is somewhat questionable. Just how much impact does it have on my corals? Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying there isn't any impact, but you chose to say 'massively impacting' and I haven't seen any research to support that statement when we talk about chages from wanting a 'natural look', to a 'good growth look', to a 'I like the color look'.

I've made what I consider as massive changes in my lighting over the past 3 years and haven't seen much impact on the corals. In fact, I now have my controller set up to make some big spectrum changes as the day goes along. My 4 hour sunrise is a little blue, 5 hours of midday is quite white and the 5 hour sunset gets more and more blue every hour and is all blue for the last hour. My corals look good to me and I have growth rates equal to or better than when I had 1000w of MH, 160w of t5 and 100w of blue leds. Again, I'm not saying that there is no impact, I'm saying within the lighting changes we choose to use, there probably isn't a massive impact.

 

[MadScientistWRX]

Very good point! I know a couple years back, Sanjay said that the traditional white/blue fixtures made his fish look drab and colorless. He said the corals don't care, to them photons are photons. Back then he was suggesting the use of warm white LEDs but this was just an alternative fix while multi-channel fixture were being developed.

Precisely.

I also remember Sanjay mentioning this. As like the real oceans, not all spectrums reach the corals so that is mostly why some have the green/brown look. You are correct, as long as they receive their dietary supplements and photons they will grow. It was until the introduction of various "full spectrums" that they started to show advanced colorations. Of course some reef's receive more spectrums than others which is why the color variations are different. Clear waters compared to murky waters is another factor.

Great thoughts.

 

[Vannpytt]

As this thread is derailing (I expect that was what you wanted to achieve) the spectrum on the "white" LEDs are off by a mile, and harmfull for corals at high intensities.

I won't bother :headwalls: any more, and no: This is not resigning my argument; -I believe what I wanted to say has been said. The people who read this thread can make up their own mind based on what's been said from all sources.

Let's review my case in 1 year from now and see..

 

[gcarroll]

I can assure you that no changes will come out of your attitude laden comments. Changes are on the way because LED fixture manufacturers have increasingly added more channels of control for better color adjustability. This occurred long before you put up this post. It had nothing to do with your so called "White LEDs of Death!"

 

[nickdo]

OK, what will be High CRI cool white's spectrum look like? How about a sunlight spectrum and add a RB peak to make cool white?

As 100%CRI is a natural light source (ex Sun light), Sun light's spectrum also contain a lot of yellow.

vs your statement - a yellow garbage spectrum will burn coral.
so, Natural Sun light(5m above) will burn coral? Another question, An "artificial cool sun light"(sunlight + RB peak) will also burn coral?
If it is true, there are no corals above 5m.

There are contradictions between your statements and natural lighting condition for corals.

you are just so confident about your comments without scientific support.

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

This chart is sun spectrum ABOVE water level(measured in Bali in our experiment trip at 2011 year)
If you will check which hard corals species live in shallow waters(up to 1.5m) you will see that there arent any with very nice colors and GFP pigments.
Allmost all strongly colored corals(coming from Acropora species) live below 5-10m(and deeper).
Its not our statement that yellow light burn coral.. We want to say only, that some light wavelenghts arent needed for proper corals pigmentation - like RED..
Please remember, that corals have to get during whole day exact amount of energy.. By changing color/pigment/algea in skin they can adjust how much energy they will absorb.
We will agree, that we(all aquarists) want to get perfectly colored corals, isnt true?

I want to remind again that chart with pigments exctitation chart - if you will see, there is no ANY pigment with excitation point above 580nm...

It easy to explain - because there is no light coming from RED spectrum on 5-10m deep(it's filtered out by water). Please take a look how many pigments have excitation points in blue/green range - and now reply, how many aquarists tell - that using green leds is not needed? If we will not use green(and specialised blue/green led chips) that pigments in corals skin will NEVER get proper light waves and this pigments will decrease(corals loose their colors).
Im sure that you saw many times amazing colored corals coming from shipments from BALI - which loose their colors after week or two.. Why? They didnt get proper light spectrum - their pigments WASNT covered by light source..
You have to agree, that green corals looks amazing under LED lights.. Pigments are strong - you will vener get similar effect under other light sources.. Why? Because pigments excitation points under LED light are PERFECTLY covered - and that pigment can emit green light(excitation point near 450nm). It is very easy to read from that chart above..

As you can see - there is no red light on 10m depth. Corals dont need it. Only our eyes need it to READ colors properly - because RED light is most important for CRI index.

So - if you ask me that:
"Natural Sun light(5m above) will burn coral?"
I will say - no, because that spectrum will looks COMPLETLY another than from water line level.
On the end - please remember that for human eyes 550nm wavelenghts are brightnest.
If there is too much light - we can't see pigments fluoroscense - because that light "cover" it...
So - I would rather to say - we are able to built PROPER light spectrum without using white leds. Using specialised LED chips which will cover only requested pigments area - without emission of wave lenghts which arent used by corals(pigments) and which only "produce" bright light for our eyes...

 

[nickdo]

I know the statement "White LED(Yellow) = garbage spectrum" is not come from you.
We can see some pigments are come from yellow spectrum. As I remember, there is a research article in advance aquarist said that Yellow spectrum can help to bring out warm pigments in acropora.

but anyway, thanks for the details explanation.

In fact, I like the SMT method actually. I recommend it. My frds will also get Hyperion S in next few days.

 

[Kolognekoral]

Want to voice your affiliation to the Aquarium industry, so people can take heed of your advice in this regard, or do you want me to tell them? I really don't think your high end affiliate will appreciate your way of dealing with "customers". I heard humility went a long way, but what do I know.



Amazing market strategy, attacking people like that.



+1

Now, I see there are claims that the "White" LEDs are full spectrum. That's really not useful information. Like Allmost said a few posts up, if you want intensity and PAR out of your "white" LEDs you get a garbage spectrum, and no, it's not corrected by "adding some blue in the mix". The junk spectrum is still there.

Further, you want to claim that corals can adapt? Sure they can, they brown out and stay in poor condition. Sure, you can run your whites at low intensity to help the corals survive and thrive, you can even add more colors to add where the blue is lacking, and run "whites" at very low intensity along with them. All in all, the "white" "Full spectrum" LEDs used in all current fixtures junk, junk and more junk. (Except those not using "white" LEDs).

Lastly, multichip LEDs is a good solution, but it's lacking spread.

You are simply demonstrating why most people who do know what they are talking about stay away from this forum!

You really should be ashamed of yourself, but do carry on!

Jamie

 

[sirreal63]

Jamie...would you prefer a world where everyone agreed on everything? Isn't it better to have an exchange of ideas, thoughts and opinions? Disagreement leads to learning, if no one challenged the norm then where would innovation came from? If someone didn't think about what they were doing with lighting we would all still be running 6500k Iwasaki bulbs and spider reflectors.

Perhaps the OP will learn and gain understanding from this thread that he would not otherwise have access to, and that learning will lead to an advancement for everyone. How sad it would be if he were not allowed the opportunity because it was tabu to challenge the norm.

 

[Vannpytt]

You are simply demonstrating why most people who do know what they are talking about stay away from this forum!

You really should be ashamed of yourself, but do carry on!

Jamie

So far, all you have contributed to this thread is to call me a moron, and you continue to forum rage. Why don't you explain why I'm wrong?

 

[carevin]

I'm still a bit lost on this and seek clarification. For the LEDs that have options like 10k and 16k-20k. It looks like from what I'm understanding that 10k would provide the best growth for coral because it seems to cover more of the lower ranges? I'm looking at a graph of the maxspect razor 10k and 16k in this example. The 10k seems to show much more range in the 400-600 grouping than the 16k. So that should indicate it's better for corals and coloration? Yet I see what seems more people with the 16k-20k. Do I have this backwards?

 

[zachts]

.......after 7 pages I figured I would have learned something useful, but alas, no. Too much bickering going on to be a useful, productive discussion, come on people.

 

[albano]

.......after 7 pages I figured I would have learned something useful, but alas, no. Too much bickering going on to be a useful, productive discussion, come on people.

Ok here's something useful for you... If you change the setting for # of posts per page, this would only be page 4!!!!

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

I'm still a bit lost on this and seek clarification. For the LEDs that have options like 10k and 16k-20k. It looks like from what I'm understanding that 10k would provide the best growth for coral because it seems to cover more of the lower ranges? I'm looking at a graph of the maxspect razor 10k and 16k in this example. The 10k seems to show much more range in the 400-600 grouping than the 16k. So that should indicate it's better for corals and coloration? Yet I see what seems more people with the 16k-20k. Do I have this backwards?

No, it's not working like you say..
Corals(depending on species) have different energy(absorbed) requirments.
By producing pigments/increasing-decreasing symbiotic algae in their skin, they can regulate amount of light absorbed by them during all day.
When corals live on 10-15m depth(below shallow water) they dont have to use all wavelenghts avalaible under water level.
They have to adjust their color(pigment) and symbiotic algae qty to survive.

But - now we have to understand - why under blue light many corals are fluoroscent green.
The key is "stokes shift". How it works?
On start - some theory.
We know from the school - that wavelenght energy depend from their lenght - and vice versa - their lenght depend from energy of that lightwaves.
Short lightwave = big energy. Long lightwave = small energy.
You can see that this chart:

Ok, now its should be clear, right?
Second important what we have to understand is question:
why red car is red? Because its red painted Joke - but of course, it have to be red painted - but it have to also REFLECT red light.
Car have to reflect red light(from light spectrum) - if there will not be any lightwaves coming from "red" area - it never will be red.
Thats a reason why corals(when we are diving) never looks colorful - they are brown(not red - like S. hystrix which above water is beatiful red/pink)... On 10m depth S. hystrix didnt get red light(lightwaves coming from area 590nm and more) so it CANT reflect ref light - and we cant see real color(diving) - and be sure thats is pink(have red pigment coming from DsRed).
But - lets back to the car.
If you will use monochromatic light like leds(blue or green) it never be red - even if it will be ultra red painted.. There will not be lighwaves coming from RED "area"..

Now - for example we try to understand - why some corals species (under blue light) are green...
We have to understand what coral "did" with light delivered to him..
Because corals need light energy for live, they "absorb" some energy from icoming lightwaves.. The key is "absorb some energy"... How much? Its depend from:
- coral species(pigment type in skin)
- light spectrum
and some other factors - like coral condition, natural food in water etc...
Do you remember that lightwaves lenght depend from energy?(and vice versa).
So - if corals will absorb some energy from wave - it will reflect lightwave with smaller energy but with increased wavelenght!
So - if we wil luse 450nm lighting(typical Royal Blue led) - after "getting" some energy - it will emit wave with another wavelenght(because wave energy is smaller).

The difference between both "peaks" is "stoke shift"..
Coral "get" blue 450nm light - take some energy - and emit fluoroscent green light(520-540nm).. Thats a reason why EVERYTHING under Blue leds looks like terminator blood ;-)
I hope that clear...
Now - it should be very easy to understand this chart. Its Acropora secale excitation/emission chart.
We can see how many energy is "consumed" by that coral - and how that emission lightwave looks after consuming some energy by that coral.

Next chart with question:

Which lightwaves that Acropora tenuis have to get(in maximum excitation point) to be(for our eyes) turquise green?(500-540nm)? It have to be lighted by lightwaves with lenght between 450-510nm(about)..
Now - you should be able to read almost all similar charts - and understand why Montipora digitata have to be lighted by green light - in other way, it never will be red/orange

If you think that this thread is interesting and you still want to discuss about that - I will be glad if I will can reply you yours questions.
I am aquarist passionate with the education in this direction - unfortunately my English is "lame" and hopefully with no one offends ...
I hope that it was interesting...

Have a nice day!

Przemysław Cybulski
www.Pacific-Sun.eu

 

[wildman926]

This chart is sun spectrum ABOVE water level(measured in Bali in our experiment trip at 2011 year)
If you will check which hard corals species live in shallow waters(up to 1.5m) you will see that there arent any with very nice colors and GFP pigments.
Allmost all strongly colored corals(coming from Acropora species) live below 5-10m(and deeper).
Its not our statement that yellow light burn coral.. We want to say only, that some light wavelenghts arent needed for proper corals pigmentation - like RED..
Please remember, that corals have to get during whole day exact amount of energy.. By changing color/pigment/algea in skin they can adjust how much energy they will absorb.
We will agree, that we(all aquarists) want to get perfectly colored corals, isnt true?

I want to remind again that chart with pigments exctitation chart - if you will see, there is no ANY pigment with excitation point above 580nm...

It easy to explain - because there is no light coming from RED spectrum on 5-10m deep(it's filtered out by water). Please take a look how many pigments have excitation points in blue/green range - and now reply, how many aquarists tell - that using green leds is not needed? If we will not use green(and specialised blue/green led chips) that pigments in corals skin will NEVER get proper light waves and this pigments will decrease(corals loose their colors).
Im sure that you saw many times amazing colored corals coming from shipments from BALI - which loose their colors after week or two.. Why? They didnt get proper light spectrum - their pigments WASNT covered by light source..
You have to agree, that green corals looks amazing under LED lights.. Pigments are strong - you will vener get similar effect under other light sources.. Why? Because pigments excitation points under LED light are PERFECTLY covered - and that pigment can emit green light(excitation point near 450nm). It is very easy to read from that chart above..

As you can see - there is no red light on 10m depth. Corals dont need it. Only our eyes need it to READ colors properly - because RED light is most important for CRI index.

So - if you ask me that:
"Natural Sun light(5m above) will burn coral?"
I will say - no, because that spectrum will looks COMPLETLY another than from water line level.
On the end - please remember that for human eyes 550nm wavelenghts are brightnest.
If there is too much light - we can't see pigments fluoroscense - because that light "cover" it...
So - I would rather to say - we are able to built PROPER light spectrum without using white leds. Using specialised LED chips which will cover only requested pigments area - without emission of wave lenghts which arent used by corals(pigments) and which only "produce" bright light for our eyes...

This is VERY informative. Thank you for posting this.

 

[wildman926]

No, it's not working like you say..
Corals(depending on species) have different energy(absorbed) requirments.
By producing pigments/increasing-decreasing symbiotic algae in their skin, they can regulate amount of light absorbed by them during all day.
When corals live on 10-15m depth(below shallow water) they dont have to use all wavelenghts avalaible under water level.
They have to adjust their color(pigment) and symbiotic algae qty to survive.

But - now we have to understand - why under blue light many corals are fluoroscent green.
The key is "stokes shift". How it works?
On start - some theory.
We know from the school - that wavelenght energy depend from their lenght - and vice versa - their lenght depend from energy of that lightwaves.
Short lightwave = big energy. Long lightwave = small energy.
You can see that this chart:

Ok, now its should be clear, right?
Second important what we have to understand is question:
why red car is red? Because its red painted Joke - but of course, it have to be red painted - but it have to also REFLECT red light.
Car have to reflect red light(from light spectrum) - if there will not be any lightwaves coming from "red" area - it never will be red.
Thats a reason why corals(when we are diving) never looks colorful - they are brown(not red - like S. hystrix which above water is beatiful red/pink)... On 10m depth S. hystrix didnt get red light(lightwaves coming from area 590nm and more) so it CANT reflect ref light - and we cant see real color(diving) - and be sure thats is pink(have red pigment coming from DsRed).
But - lets back to the car.
If you will use monochromatic light like leds(blue or green) it never be red - even if it will be ultra red painted.. There will not be lighwaves coming from RED "area"..

Now - for example we try to understand - why some corals species (under blue light) are green...
We have to understand what coral "did" with light delivered to him..
Because corals need light energy for live, they "absorb" some energy from icoming lightwaves.. The key is "absorb some energy"... How much? Its depend from:
- coral species(pigment type in skin)
- light spectrum
and some other factors - like coral condition, natural food in water etc...
Do you remember that lightwaves lenght depend from energy?(and vice versa).
So - if corals will absorb some energy from wave - it will reflect lightwave with smaller energy but with increased wavelenght!
So - if we wil luse 450nm lighting(typical Royal Blue led) - after "getting" some energy - it will emit wave with another wavelenght(because wave energy is smaller).

The difference between both "peaks" is "stoke shift"..
Coral "get" blue 450nm light - take some energy - and emit fluoroscent green light(520-540nm).. Thats a reason why EVERYTHING under Blue leds looks like terminator blood ;-)
I hope that clear...
Now - it should be very easy to understand this chart. Its Acropora secale excitation/emission chart.
We can see how many energy is "consumed" by that coral - and how that emission lightwave looks after consuming some energy by that coral.

Next chart with question:

Which lightwaves that Acropora tenuis have to get(in maximum excitation point) to be(for our eyes) turquise green?(500-540nm)? It have to be lighted by lightwaves with lenght between 450-510nm(about)..
Now - you should be able to read almost all similar charts - and understand why Montipora digitata have to be lighted by green light - in other way, it never will be red/orange

If you think that this thread is interesting and you still want to discuss about that - I will be glad if I will can reply you yours questions.
I am aquarist passionate with the education in this direction - unfortunately my English is "lame" and hopefully with no one offends ...
I hope that it was interesting...

Have a nice day!

Przemysław Cybulski
www.Pacific-Sun.eu

I have learned so much from these two posts I have quoted. It helps to understand where the "first gen" LED fixtures have fallen short.