penfold2
Member
Not sure what you're talking about. I wasn't looking for a response from you, just answering Mattewell's question.
Open letter to the LED industry
- Thread starter Vannpytt
- Start date
Not sure what you're talking about. I wasn't looking for a response from you, just answering Mattewell's question.
Ron Reefman
Active member
And what the corals get down 5', 10', 20' 30' under water isn't the same as sunlight at all either. We have 18" to 30" deep tanks and corals mounted on rocks up even shallower. So there is little to no water filtering of the light spectrum. So having a light that was an exact duplicate spectrum of the sun, wouldn't be the same for the corals in our tanks as it was for them in the wild at various depths. And yet whatever color spectrum our current (lets say less than 1 year old) multi spectrum (I won't call it full spectrum anymore) leds deliver, most people's corals seem to do pretty well. As jscarlata suggested, corals are animals and they adapt (and some adapt pretty quickly). So they survive and grow with the multi spectrum led light we throw at them now. Could leds be better, absolutely. Will they get better for aquariums and coral because we want it... not likely. They will get better because other, bigger markets demand new and different products and then we can try to adapt them into what we use. Whether you like it or not, we (the marine reef tank community) is really a fairly small market and a very price sensitive one as well (which really slows innovation).
So don't expect led makers or led fixture manufacturers to develop just what you want and then offer it to you for a great price. It's just not going to happen. They do the best they can with the products that they have available while trying to keep costs under control. Many led fixture makers don't have a clue about what corals need, and don't care. They make fixtures to try and match what the market is asking for, or been duped into thinking it wants by the few bigger led fixture makers that do a lot of advertising. Are led fixtures getting better over time? Yes. Is it a planned obsolescence that all the led fixture manufacturers have signed onto just to get all our money? Yeah, sure. And the moon is made of cheese!
And after all that, what is it you want in an led fixture? Do you want one that is a duplicate of the suns spectrum? Do you want one that's a duplicate of the sun's spectrum after it's been filtered by 15' of seawater? Or should it be shallower... or maybe deeper? Do you want one that's good looking to your eye (and we all have different ideas of what is good looking, don't we)? Do you want one that makes your corals grow fast and the heck with what it looks like? Do you want one that makes your corals glow in the dark? Do you want one that can switch back and forth between all the possible scenarios? And then are you willing to pay $10,000 for the custom made one off leds, drivers and controllers? Naw, I just want the perfect led fixture for under $500 that will cover all of my 180g tank and not cast any nasty shadows... and that's an entirely different problem.
Have fun guys, carry on with your bickering. :lol:
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CHSUB
"Certified Hobby Expert"
Remember the title of this thread: "œopen letter to the LED industry""¦.my letter would say, "œstop claiming your led lamps grow sps' corals when you neither care or know if they do." We, as aquarist, should stop buying their lamps until they show us proof. Many of these makers are displaying mature sps' reefs and claiming the corals where grown from frags. Take Pacific Sun for example, a year and ½ ago they had the R2 with xml LEDs running at 8 watts and the LEDs spread out. Now the S lamp with no white LEDs and the LEDs grouped tightly; a complete change imo. Seems to me they have no idea which is better and don't care only that we buy it.
jscarlata
New member
I don't think the LED industry make those claims, the led fixture makers perhaps are making those claims, huge difference. afaik the co's that make led fixtures for our use aren't making the actual led diodes. I've read other threads where people are critical of various lamp makers because they had issues and gave up blaming the light for the failure and death of the corals. this wasn't a thread about specific aquarium fixture vendors, it was started about the manufacturers of the actual led diodes themselves...
If I had changed my lights and left the tank as is, I probably would have seen a lot of issues, it's not a turnkey switch, it's a major change to a living ecosystem in a contained space...it takes time effort and patience as well as a lot of water testing...if I left dosing alone and assumed all was the same as before the light switch, my alk and cal would have been off the charts...surely the corals wouldn't like that...
Perhaps the aquarium fixture vendors collectively could have an open forum discussion w the leading led diode makers to provide insight and advice as to what would help this niche of the led industry...the led diode makers aren't reading reef central unfortunalty.
If I had changed my lights and left the tank as is, I probably would have seen a lot of issues, it's not a turnkey switch, it's a major change to a living ecosystem in a contained space...it takes time effort and patience as well as a lot of water testing...if I left dosing alone and assumed all was the same as before the light switch, my alk and cal would have been off the charts...surely the corals wouldn't like that...
Perhaps the aquarium fixture vendors collectively could have an open forum discussion w the leading led diode makers to provide insight and advice as to what would help this niche of the led industry...the led diode makers aren't reading reef central unfortunalty.
Kolognekoral
New member
You got it! If the LED (light source) is not emmiting the wavelength, it is simply NOT there.
I'm glad someone is using their brain.
CHSUB
"Certified Hobby Expert"
misunderstanding!!! i was speaking to aquarium fixture vendors, not the industry as a whole. cree and others have never claimed their LEDs could grow corals.
Allmost
New member
what does this mean ?
Reef_Breeders
Sponsor
Reef_Breeders
Sponsor
Well, you have a peak at 450, 550, and 650, it will look white, but in reality, it looks like this:
While a phosphor driven white looks like this, and is full-spectrum, just add a couple 480nm diodes to get the spot missed:
Allmost
New member
Beat me to it
wow you guys really need to review optics and physics and how light is made ...
no wonder all LED fixtures suck lol
Reef_Breeders
Sponsor
And why is that? an rgb LED has too many gaps in the spectrum that you have to make up for with more LEDs, therefore any efficiency gain is lost. You are not lighting a room, you are lighting a miniature coral reef. Optics will not change the spectrum.
Allmost
New member
all the wrong terms used in this hobby side of LEDs ... lol
"Optics is the branch of physics which involves the behaviour and properties of light," I have no Idea why Optic is now a lens lol just like how we call deep blue LEDs UV I guess ...
but the first RGB graph, is much closer to T5 and MH's spectrum. play with the intensity of each peak, add a couple of colours to fill in between [like the 480 nm diode mentioned] and you have T5 output. this way, at the end, you have control over the full spectrum so you dont burn the corals with green or yellow just cause you want more intensity on blue side [ increase voltage of white LED and the yellow would burn corals,]
"Optics is the branch of physics which involves the behaviour and properties of light," I have no Idea why Optic is now a lens lol just like how we call deep blue LEDs UV I guess ...
but the first RGB graph, is much closer to T5 and MH's spectrum. play with the intensity of each peak, add a couple of colours to fill in between [like the 480 nm diode mentioned] and you have T5 output. this way, at the end, you have control over the full spectrum
so you dont burn the corals with green or yellow just cause you want more intensity on blue side [ increase voltage of white LED and the yellow would burn corals,]Reef_Breeders
Sponsor
all the wrong terms used in this hobby side of LEDs ... lol
"Optics is the branch of physics which involves the behaviour and properties of light," I have no Idea why Optic is now a lens lol just like how we call deep blue LEDs UV I guess ...
but the first RGB graph, is much closer to T5 and MH's spectrum. play with the intensity of each peak, add a couple of colours to fill in between [like the 480 nm diode mentioned] and you have T5 output. this way, at the end, you have control over the full spectrum
True, but I gave up copying mh almost a year ago, it is much better to simply use a full spectrum diode, then target the spectra that chlorophyll and proteins in coral tissue absorb. And with a phosphor driven diode, there are less blanks. There are several ways to do it, you are not necessarily wrong, it is just not the method I have had success with
. I think that RGB LEDs will play a role in the future, especially with their ability to be controlled color wise, but I also believe that phosphor driven LEDs will be here to stay for a long time, because of their "full spectrum" output.Being in the sign industry I have seen LEDs in action for signs manufactured as well as all types of lighting solutions. The RGB diode is used in some applications I have seen and is very versatile in matching a customers specific request, usually high end signage with control over colors. However, it comes at a cost that is out of range for the majority.
For reef tanks, it is possible but again the cost would be great vs the control features needed to replicate a specific spectrum needed for reefs. I like the idea and think it would work, however, the trend has shifted in the sign industry towards "cheaper" manufactured LED's and more profit..Thus, light output suffers along with quality.
Would this applied to our hobby, hopefully not, but technology comes with a price and it will be interesting to see if RGB diodes can work for our hobby.
For reef tanks, it is possible but again the cost would be great vs the control features needed to replicate a specific spectrum needed for reefs. I like the idea and think it would work, however, the trend has shifted in the sign industry towards "cheaper" manufactured LED's and more profit..Thus, light output suffers along with quality.
Would this applied to our hobby, hopefully not, but technology comes with a price and it will be interesting to see if RGB diodes can work for our hobby.
Who are these people and what are their setups? What are they growing? What size tank?
Want to voice your affiliation to the Aquarium industry, so people can take heed of your advice in this regard, or do you want me to tell them? I really don't think your high end affiliate will appreciate your way of dealing with "customers". I heard humility went a long way, but what do I know.
Beat me to it
Amazing market strategy, attacking people like that.
+1
Now, I see there are claims that the "White" LEDs are full spectrum. That's really not useful information. Like Allmost said a few posts up, if you want intensity and PAR out of your "white" LEDs you get a garbage spectrum, and no, it's not corrected by "adding some blue in the mix". The junk spectrum is still there.
Further, you want to claim that corals can adapt? Sure they can, they brown out and stay in poor condition. Sure, you can run your whites at low intensity to help the corals survive and thrive, you can even add more colors to add where the blue is lacking, and run "whites" at very low intensity along with them. All in all, the "white" "Full spectrum" LEDs used in all current fixtures junk, junk and more junk. (Except those not using "white" LEDs).
Lastly, multichip LEDs is a good solution, but it's lacking spread.
Mattiejay6
New member
Vannpytt;21746363 Further said:
jscarlata
New member
Corals ONLY brown out under led? I don't think so... That's a generalization. Corals brown out due to too little light/food and too much zooanthele, they bleach with too much light..regardless of the type of light.
My post was more specific than that...I said that if the light spectrum provides what the coral needs to grow, that changing from one type of light to another causes the animal to adapt...they slow down or stop growing at first as rhey adjust to rhe new light, then resume growth and coloraation...I'm seeing this in my tank right now first hand...it's taking time, but it's happening
My post was more specific than that...I said that if the light spectrum provides what the coral needs to grow, that changing from one type of light to another causes the animal to adapt...they slow down or stop growing at first as rhey adjust to rhe new light, then resume growth and coloraation...I'm seeing this in my tank right now first hand...it's taking time, but it's happening
gcarroll
Active member
These are LED corals 100% grown from frags under LED only! Tank has been going for over 18 months. Keep in mind his fixture has a "junk" spectrum that does not even include any UV.
I need an explanation of how he is able to keep these colored corals. I'm sure he is curious as well how long his corals will live under LED. I want to be able to warn him so he can pull them out before it's too late.
IMHO, this tank is surely screwing up some arguments!
Keep in mind that I am a MH guy (I do have Ecoxotic Canons for supplementation) but do plan to go full LED (AI Vega) on the next tank.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2256865
I need an explanation of how he is able to keep these colored corals. I'm sure he is curious as well how long his corals will live under LED. I want to be able to warn him so he can pull them out before it's too late.
IMHO, this tank is surely screwing up some arguments!Keep in mind that I am a MH guy (I do have Ecoxotic Canons for supplementation) but do plan to go full LED (AI Vega) on the next tank.
More pics available here:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2256865
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